Which Bull?

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:01 pm

Done it! This is Vatch Apollo, up in our top field with some of his cows (mostly out of picture!) last summer. He is non-short (tested non-carrier), polled, 9 years old and a real gem. And he is on this string for no other reason that I was determined to crack the problem of getting pics onto this site so the poor lad is also a guinea-pig. Take heart - if I can do it everyone can!! This is a separate post in case it didn't work.

MAB · Post by **MAB** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:15 pm

It didn't work!!

MAB · Post by **MAB** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:18 pm

Broomcroft wrote:We've got one set of twin heifers, named Chilli & Pepper.

Clive

Do twin heifers in cattle mean that neither will be fertile or am I mixing this up with something else?

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:40 pm

It is usual with twin pregnancies in cattle for the circulation of the two foetuses to mix due to overlap of the placentae, so that male hormones circulate in the female during the development of the genital organs, there is inhibition of development of the uterus and oviducts, the ovaries are very rudimentary. The development of the male is not adversely affected, so in twin bull and heifer sets the heifer is usually infertile but the bull ok. Twin heifer with heifer is ok, twin bull to bull is ok. Except of course if you breed with animals with a tendency to produce twins you will get more twins in later generations. There are various names for heifer twins to bulls, eg freemartins, Jenny Willocks, who can come up with some other local ones? 96% of heifer twins to bulls are infertile as a result of this. It is possible to have the blood tested to see if this is the case, but only 1 in 25 chance of getting the answer you want.
At the time Burnside Lemon and B. Lime were born I went through about 20 years of herd books and could only find a small handful of recorded twins, but of course there are more Dexters now so there will be more twins. Not only genetics but nutrition can influence production of twins. We have one dairy client who had 33 sets of Holstein twins in a herd of 150 one year, but this is exceptional.

Duncan

happy hollidays · Post by **happy hollidays** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:07 pm

Thank you for that information. I am amazed at the number of Holstein twins, I presume the numbers were not nearly so high for the following years.

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:52 am

I use Photobucket too Issy. Sylvia, try using the IMG code instead. Once You've copied the picture onto your posting, change the IMG to img (lower case) and the picture will appear properly.

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:56 am

We've had a set of twins born here. A bull and heifer twins. They were born to a 10 year old cow who was 50% Dexter and 50% Jersey. She was a short leg. Here's a picture of the said cow and her twins aged 6 months;

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:27 pm

Try again. This is what greeted the herdsman when he had dashed back with the camera, after duly preparing Hedgehog to take a picture

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:40 am

Quick question about twinning.

I am curious as to whether other species of animals have the same problems with male - female twins. We have had our first set of male-female twins from our sheep this year - we only have a small flock, for 2 seasons now, so not a lot of twin sets yet! :D These are from a cross bred ewe so both going to the freezer anyway, but am curious whether infertility in twins happens in other breeds. Would assume not in breeds that have litters (dogs, cats etc) and we don't tend to hear about it in humans, so just wondering!

Sorry to go slightly off thread - but I find it a fascinating subject!

Jo Kemp · Post by **Jo Kemp** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:58 am

Nope, you are right Rebecca, Other species are perfectly OK so your lambs will be fertile, other things being equal. Deer also nearly always have twins and their fertility is not affected ... their ingestion period is fascinating but totally different to cattle or sheep!
Jo

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:31 am

Thanks Jo

Seems odd that it only occurs in cattle though. Have to wonder if it has something to do with uterine shape and whether this affects placental growth.

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:09 am

Ilsington Bramble looks to be a carrier. Is this so? I am curious because I understand that Duncan is breeding for a small non-carrier. Is this a bull from before that breeding program began?

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:36 am

Yes Jim, Bramble's purchase dated long before I really had made up my mind where I wanted my breeding to be going. I bought him because I was finding AI results less than encouraging and with a very small herd any sort of set back was major. I had no sooner bought him when some DCS council members asked if I would be willing to put him on AI since he was such a good bull. The same council members had sat round the sale ring when I bought him on one bid above a butcher. At the time I felt that if he was a good bull then he might be wasted in a herd of one or two cows and went ahead. In a way it was good for me because it got me more into the real workings of the DCS and I learned a lot. A short time after replacing him with a bull I thought might just be non-carrier (no DNA tests then) I had four bulldogs out of three females in less than 12 months and my lesson was learned. My next purchase was Woodmagic Black Bear, then Shilton Pontius, and my breeding aim changed to trying to produce non bulldog carriers of similar height to show type short legged Dexters. I would not now be involved in putting a short legged bull on AI. However although that is my breeding aim I have no wish to deny any short leg enthusiasts the right to pursue their aims as long as they are not stopping me with mine. The Dexter is a very diverse breed and needs a lot of tolerance and understanding amongst breeders.

Duncan

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:55 am

Thanks for the explaination Duncan. I too am interested in breeding a non-carrier small Dexter. I believe that I have read that it can sometimes take a practiced eye to see the difference between a small non-carrier and a carrier. I would love to see some comparitive photos of Dexters that are non-carriers yet as small as a shortleg Dexter if anyone can oblige.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:14 am

Posted: Mar. 10 2007,9:15

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It didn't work!!

Sorry MAB, this has been puzzling me, what didn't work?