Help! Need info on bull

jim · Post by **jim** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:52 pm

I am wondering if the recessive colour genetics might be visable on our animals. Especially as calves I have noticed that some animals have a red tinge, most notably at the extremities, and some do not. Over time this shading will fade but still be in evidence in the long over coat of winter hair. Last year we had our first dun calf and this year the same dam, same mating, had a black heifer with brown ear tips and tail tip [cute as a button]. So I assume that black animals with a red tinge are black with a red recessive gene, black animals with brown tinge are black with a dun recessive and animals without any tinge are black\black. Is this basicly true?

Kathy Millar · Post by **Kathy Millar** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:17 am

Boy, am I glad that Dexters don't carry any spotting gene ??? If you want to have fun with colours, check out the Shetland and Icelandic sheep! :D

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:58 am

jim wrote:I am wondering if the recessive colour genetics might be visable on our animals. Especially as calves I have noticed that some animals have a red tinge, most notably at the extremities, and some do not. Over time this shading will fade but still be in evidence in the long over coat of winter hair. Last year we had our first dun calf and this year the same dam, same mating, had a black heifer with brown ear tips and tail tip [cute as a button]. So I assume that black animals with a red tinge are black with a red recessive gene, black animals with brown tinge are black with a dun recessive and animals without any tinge are black\black. Is this basicly true?

I've wondered the same thing about the hidden recessives exhibiting in a minor way. Lots of folks have made similar observations about seeing signs of red in black animals. I've not been able to find any scientifically verifiable studies. In our herd, we have a good number of reds and also a good number of blacks carrying red. While the red-tinged blacks have been blacks that carry red, we've also had some very solid blacks (with no red tinge) that also carried red.

Something to keep in mind is that there are two types of melanin pigment; eumelanin (black/brown) and phaeomelanin (red/yellow/orange). Even a black animal that does not carry red genes, can still have some underlying phaeomelanin.

Kirk

PS. To Kathy's point about Icelandic sheep, we have a good flock of them and she's right about the color genetics. The thing I find so very interesting is that how the genetics from one breed of mammals to another breed overlap so heavily and understanding one helps with another. I'm pretty certain that the B locus in our Icelandic sheep is controlling the switch from
Black to Brown (same as Black to Dun in Dexters).

By the way, our Icelandic sheep follow behind our Dexters in grazing rotations, a perfect match.

Cascademeadowsfarm.com

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:38 pm

One of our bulls carries Red and he often has a Red tinge through his coat during Summer. The other bull doesn't carry Red as far as I can tell and is solid Black. But his calves all start out as brown, whereas most of the first bull's calves arrive with lovely Black shiny coats. Now that's got me puzzled. I'm wondering if the second bull carries Dun? I haven't tried him on the only cow in the herd that may carry Dun - looking through her pedigree, but I have put her to a Red bull, that also carries Dun, this season, so who knows, maybe I'll find out this year.

If she ends up giving me a Dun coloured calf, I'll try her on our second bull ans see what happens.

Carol K · Post by **Carol K** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:51 pm

I'm apt to think that any red or brown that you see in a black animals coat is either dead hair, old hair, sun bleached hair, or lack of a good mineral program.

Also, I think Dexters do carry the recessive white, maybe it's not the same as some spotting genes, but they must carry it or we wouldn't get the odd animal that has a white spot or udder would we?

Carol

marion · Post by **marion** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:02 pm

Hi Carol, I asked the same question this spring on "our" board. I had two young black calves this year. One had a real dun sheen along her topline and the other a red sheen. The one with the dun sheen has a dam who carries dun. The other, I dont know if the sire might possibly carry red.
I agree about the sunburn/mineral thing in older cattle..marion

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:08 am

I can't see how it would be only an environmental effect. Animals with the same diet, same sun on their backs, free access to minerals and salt. Some have it and some don't. And then is it just a coincidence that the extra colouring happens to be the only other colours our Dexter come in?

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:32 am

Kathy M, don't know if you have the answer to your initial question, but wondered if you knew that even though Woodmagic Pine Martin was black, in the DCS herd book 1984, page 76, he is stated to be the sire of Richmond Hill Dandy, Colour Red. It only takes one to prove the red, if in fact the records are correct. I could do more searching if you are still interested.