It is a while since Ted Neal asked us for ideas to improve the Society. There were some interesting ideas but predictably and unfortunately they have been met with little or no open response from the Council.
At the time I put forward my often repeated proposal of a questionaire because I believe you cannot begin a programme of change until you know your members,their wishes and their ideas well.I still believe that this is the first step to be taken but to keep this topic going, here are some other thoughts.
Thoughts that have a common thread - to change the way the Society is run from the current secretive,inward-looking,political,slow approach to one that is open,inclusive,progressive and has the "can do" spirit. I would recommend that:
1 The "Council" becomes a "Management Team"
2 The Team would consist of 5 people.3 elected nationally and 2 regionally(by rotation)
3 The Team would elect their Chairman and Deputy Chairman.(The current nonsense of a Council "executive" would be killed off.)
4 The Team would work mainly by e-mail and perhaps web cam. They would focus on members interests and ideas and develop an effective two way communication process.
5 The Team would choose how they wanted to work but would probably operate via teams(using volunteers)specialising on a key issue e.g.
-Registration and Membership
aiming to make it easier,cheaper and more positive (ie preferring to say yes than no)
etc
-Promotion and Lobbying(e.g. over 30 months rules)
Install a concerted campaign.Develop our best shop window - showing - as a promotional and lobbying tool.Develop the Bulletin - what a crazy notion to kill off a prestigeous publication especially with our existing and prospective member profile.
etc
-The Breed
Phase in exclusive use of non bulldog gene carrier bulls through free DNA and new registration rules
etc
I could go on but perhaps that is enough toget your teeth into!!
Keeping up the Momentum
Your suggestions certainly intrigued me and I suspect will enrage a few. I shall watch the response with interest. Certainly it leaves the impression of a positive outlook, but far too radical to get very far. The trouble is, we are such a diverse lot, and I suspect some may be outside the Charity remit.
At least it puts the emphasis on encouragement, something I have found distinctly lacking in recent times. Rather like the national government, enacting laws for their own sake.
At least it puts the emphasis on encouragement, something I have found distinctly lacking in recent times. Rather like the national government, enacting laws for their own sake.
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Rod, I agree with Beryl that your suggestions certainly are interesting and innovative. Perhaps a bit too radical in the reduction in size of "Council", maybe difficult to maintain a sense of democracy with such a small governing body, but they we don't have much sense of democracy at the moment. I have often wondered if regional representatives were the answer but difficult since some regions have many members and some very few, difficult to be fair. One feature of the current system is the 3 year rotation, which is used by many organisations to ensure some continuity, and to a certain extent is a good thing. Would your system allow any overlap year to year or term to term?
We badly need to look at distance communication, when I served on council it used to be two days away from home for each meeting. Most people nowadays are probably not too far from useable facilities even if they do not have a home computer to use.
It is good to see someone else brave enough to suggest the registration of only non carrier bulls. I suggested this at a meeting in Stoneleigh in the 1990's, before we had the DNA test but when we were beginning to see it on the horizon. It went down like a lead balloon, but things are different now and we know a lot more and have the test. I have no bulldog genes left in my herd now and most of my cows are 37".
Council had done various bits of lobbying in the past and probably does more than we realise at present. We used to get loads of consultation documents from DEFRA or whoever, on such things as BSE, ear tags, passports etc when new regulations were being brought in. Letters from council backed up by photos of one of Veronica Schofield's calf's ears next to a full size tag were instrumental in getting the smaller size of readable tags agreed, and now they are used by a large number of commerial farmers as well.
A change I would like to see in council is that when new members are elected they should not just be thrown into a meeting immediatlely, but some sort of event be organised to allow members to get to know each other and maybe even understand each others views a bit better.
I also think the Society as a whole would benefit from a period of stability in the office with a good breed sectretary and support staff. The frequent changes in the office have had a detrimental effect, and I say that without any wish to blame anyone or cast aspertions on anyone's performance - a lot of changes have taken place for a large variety of reasons. One thing I would say is that both members and council members should treat our office staff with care and consideration at all times, and this has not always been the case in the past.
Duncan
We badly need to look at distance communication, when I served on council it used to be two days away from home for each meeting. Most people nowadays are probably not too far from useable facilities even if they do not have a home computer to use.
It is good to see someone else brave enough to suggest the registration of only non carrier bulls. I suggested this at a meeting in Stoneleigh in the 1990's, before we had the DNA test but when we were beginning to see it on the horizon. It went down like a lead balloon, but things are different now and we know a lot more and have the test. I have no bulldog genes left in my herd now and most of my cows are 37".
Council had done various bits of lobbying in the past and probably does more than we realise at present. We used to get loads of consultation documents from DEFRA or whoever, on such things as BSE, ear tags, passports etc when new regulations were being brought in. Letters from council backed up by photos of one of Veronica Schofield's calf's ears next to a full size tag were instrumental in getting the smaller size of readable tags agreed, and now they are used by a large number of commerial farmers as well.
A change I would like to see in council is that when new members are elected they should not just be thrown into a meeting immediatlely, but some sort of event be organised to allow members to get to know each other and maybe even understand each others views a bit better.
I also think the Society as a whole would benefit from a period of stability in the office with a good breed sectretary and support staff. The frequent changes in the office have had a detrimental effect, and I say that without any wish to blame anyone or cast aspertions on anyone's performance - a lot of changes have taken place for a large variety of reasons. One thing I would say is that both members and council members should treat our office staff with care and consideration at all times, and this has not always been the case in the past.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
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Rob & Alison Kirk
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:59 pm
Rod - My view would be rather than a questionnaire, I think you should stand for Council at the next election. Prior to the election you will have the opportunity to make the membership aware of your thoughts/proposals. If you are successfully elected, you will be able to take your proposals forward in a more constructive way. If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be a member of Council to lead the discussion and converse with other Council members.
I agree with Beryl, your proposals are radical and, therefore, I can see there will be a need for much thought and discussion. Most importantly, if your proposals are taken on board, you will be there to implement them.
Robert Kirk
I agree with Beryl, your proposals are radical and, therefore, I can see there will be a need for much thought and discussion. Most importantly, if your proposals are taken on board, you will be there to implement them.
Robert Kirk
Radical? I believe these proposals aren't radical but could be effective if well and enthusiastically implemented. At present, small breeders such as myself are rapidly losing interest in the Society as costs and paperwork mount with absolutely no discernable benefit to us or our cattle.
Unless things rapidly change for the better, I will stop all registration and will dump my membership. I and others can breed good Dexters without the hassles and outrageous expenses imposed by a Council which appears impervious to transparency and effective change.
I believe the Council is currently akin to a self-licking lollypop and serves the interests of a few purists only. Please, please start listening to what your members are saying before people vote with their feet.
Unless things rapidly change for the better, I will stop all registration and will dump my membership. I and others can breed good Dexters without the hassles and outrageous expenses imposed by a Council which appears impervious to transparency and effective change.
I believe the Council is currently akin to a self-licking lollypop and serves the interests of a few purists only. Please, please start listening to what your members are saying before people vote with their feet.
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
My herd produces 4 calves per year.
The society has done nothing to increase the value of my females, in fact I get more for a carcase. (Yes I know it's my responsibility to breed and present my stock but most societies spend a lot more time promoting their sales - this one just argues with the auctioneer)
It's now much more difficult to find a bull. (And what pray has all this parent DNA nonsense actually achieved?)
And the bulletin is on its way out.
The society is currently sitting on the fence on the subject of carriers. (Try explaining the short/ non short issue to a real farmer without him laughing)
For whose benefit is this sociaty being run?
It's a long time since the King was president you know! (Someone tell me I didn't just make that up)
The society has done nothing to increase the value of my females, in fact I get more for a carcase. (Yes I know it's my responsibility to breed and present my stock but most societies spend a lot more time promoting their sales - this one just argues with the auctioneer)
It's now much more difficult to find a bull. (And what pray has all this parent DNA nonsense actually achieved?)
And the bulletin is on its way out.
The society is currently sitting on the fence on the subject of carriers. (Try explaining the short/ non short issue to a real farmer without him laughing)
For whose benefit is this sociaty being run?
It's a long time since the King was president you know! (Someone tell me I didn't just make that up)
The Society is not a mythical figure you know. The society is its membership, you and I. The majority should rule, but unfortunately most of the majority is silent and we don't know what they want. The problem is 'who attends the meetings' do we really get a good cross section. I have never been to an AGM of the society as they are held too far away and would be too time consuming for me. I always attend the AGM of our local group, which is never well attended, we have over 70 members in our group and are lucky if 12 to 15 attend (always the same faces). So how can we pass resolutions for the majority? Apathy rules OK!
As has been stated on a number of posts including this one, we are a diverse bunch with probably vastly different expectations and aspirations of the 'Society', with threats of leaving if the bullitin is disscontinued or the society doesn't change or if it does change, if fee's don't go down, if fees do go down! How the hell can anyone lead us in one direction or another. This is why change either does not happen or is very slow. We need people that are forward thinking as we must look to the future, is that so radical? There are issues that must be addressed if we are to continue to attract new membership and increase the return we get for our stock. If that requires higher fees (which I don't think it would) and if it means some get upset and leave the Society, so be it! We cannot remain entrenched in the past. If the Society's constitution does not allow it to go where the membership want it to then we must change the constitution, simple in my view.
We live in the 21st century and communication is so much easier now, we should have conferencing via the internet to save all the hassle of traveling to and fro from a venue. Duncans idea of a get together for new members of council, great lets do it. Rods idea of only non carrier bulls being registered, great lets do it. Rods idea of a smaller council should be disscussed urgently, and in my view implimented as soon as possible.
Martin.
As has been stated on a number of posts including this one, we are a diverse bunch with probably vastly different expectations and aspirations of the 'Society', with threats of leaving if the bullitin is disscontinued or the society doesn't change or if it does change, if fee's don't go down, if fees do go down! How the hell can anyone lead us in one direction or another. This is why change either does not happen or is very slow. We need people that are forward thinking as we must look to the future, is that so radical? There are issues that must be addressed if we are to continue to attract new membership and increase the return we get for our stock. If that requires higher fees (which I don't think it would) and if it means some get upset and leave the Society, so be it! We cannot remain entrenched in the past. If the Society's constitution does not allow it to go where the membership want it to then we must change the constitution, simple in my view.
We live in the 21st century and communication is so much easier now, we should have conferencing via the internet to save all the hassle of traveling to and fro from a venue. Duncans idea of a get together for new members of council, great lets do it. Rods idea of only non carrier bulls being registered, great lets do it. Rods idea of a smaller council should be disscussed urgently, and in my view implimented as soon as possible.
Martin.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
I'm in another society which operates worldwide. It's very successful, partly because it's not rub on purely democratic lines.
However, it's successful because it listens to the membership. Once a year it has a series of advisory meetings at which selected members are invited to a central location (usually Birmingham) and asked how they want the organisation to develop.
If our society were to follow this model then they would probably invite the regional chairs + a selection of prominent breeders and troublemakers. (Those 2 classes are of course totally seperate!) The point is that by bringing in those voices you achieve 2 things. Firstly you have gained their input and secondly you have brought them into the fold.
The society can never please all of the people but good leadership LISTENS to all of the people and then makes decisions in a planned and rational manner whilst being accountable to the membership. It also communicates a vision to the membership of where the society is going and how it intends to get there.
However, it's successful because it listens to the membership. Once a year it has a series of advisory meetings at which selected members are invited to a central location (usually Birmingham) and asked how they want the organisation to develop.
If our society were to follow this model then they would probably invite the regional chairs + a selection of prominent breeders and troublemakers. (Those 2 classes are of course totally seperate!) The point is that by bringing in those voices you achieve 2 things. Firstly you have gained their input and secondly you have brought them into the fold.
The society can never please all of the people but good leadership LISTENS to all of the people and then makes decisions in a planned and rational manner whilst being accountable to the membership. It also communicates a vision to the membership of where the society is going and how it intends to get there.
Hi Rob and Alison, I cannot tell from your post if you are for or against my proposals but for sure your suggestion to go on Council(if elected) would knock them into the long grass for a long time.
You will know better than most that both in Council and at the AGM power is a numbers game.The cabal(aka the Sheepshed Gang because of the way they plotted your removal in a sheepshed at that infamous Stoneleigh AGM) were then and still are very good at managing the numbers/votes.
I believe the only way significant and speedy change could happen would be a concerted push from members.Unfortunately I suspect this is unlikely at present and perhaps like other organisations in denial about the need for change things will have to get worse before the issues are tackled.
But who knows? There may be a handy sheepshed at the next AGM and anything could happen!!!
You will know better than most that both in Council and at the AGM power is a numbers game.The cabal(aka the Sheepshed Gang because of the way they plotted your removal in a sheepshed at that infamous Stoneleigh AGM) were then and still are very good at managing the numbers/votes.
I believe the only way significant and speedy change could happen would be a concerted push from members.Unfortunately I suspect this is unlikely at present and perhaps like other organisations in denial about the need for change things will have to get worse before the issues are tackled.
But who knows? There may be a handy sheepshed at the next AGM and anything could happen!!!
The opening contribution to this discussion was very constructive, lets keep it that way. Firstly I would remind you we have some new blood on Council, so they should be given a chance.
I started as a very small breeder and I still think along those lines, to me they will always be the lifeblood of this society. Why are we not getting more representation of their kind on Council? We had a full page advertisement asking for prospective members, but the result was so few volunteers that there was no need for a vote, and that has been the same story for years.
I believe it is because younger folks cannot afford to spend a whole day away from their job or their holding, with most of that day likely to be spent travelling, not even working at a discussion.
I have been trying for years to persuade the powers that be to think in terms of e-mail and tele-conferencing, certainly a better use of time available, and probably cheaper. Towards the end, once the venue was moved to Stoneleigh, I had to leave home soon after six a.m. and returned about ten p.m. arriving at the venue about eleven and leaving around four thirty, and my journey was not as bad as some. Three hours travelling for every hour of discussion is more profitable to the railway than the Society.
In these days of instant communication, I believe if the requirement was for a couple of hours in a day, it would be possible to attract more younger folks with energy and bright ideas, lets be knowing if I am right.
I started as a very small breeder and I still think along those lines, to me they will always be the lifeblood of this society. Why are we not getting more representation of their kind on Council? We had a full page advertisement asking for prospective members, but the result was so few volunteers that there was no need for a vote, and that has been the same story for years.
I believe it is because younger folks cannot afford to spend a whole day away from their job or their holding, with most of that day likely to be spent travelling, not even working at a discussion.
I have been trying for years to persuade the powers that be to think in terms of e-mail and tele-conferencing, certainly a better use of time available, and probably cheaper. Towards the end, once the venue was moved to Stoneleigh, I had to leave home soon after six a.m. and returned about ten p.m. arriving at the venue about eleven and leaving around four thirty, and my journey was not as bad as some. Three hours travelling for every hour of discussion is more profitable to the railway than the Society.
In these days of instant communication, I believe if the requirement was for a couple of hours in a day, it would be possible to attract more younger folks with energy and bright ideas, lets be knowing if I am right.
I have been reading the discussions about the society with interest. I would like to become more involved within the society with the possiblity for standing for a position on the council in the future. Could someone who has been in the council put forward some details as to what their postion involved and realistic time spent dealing with council matters. Perhaps there are people who read these discussions, that would consider putting themselves foward if they were better informed about what they were letting themselves in for!
Caroline
Caroline
Caroline, having just rubbished the present organisation of Council puts me on the spot, especially as my response is a wish to encourage you.
Historically, the position of councillor involves attending around five days meetings, at present held at Stoneleigh. Preparation of meetings is done through papers giving the agenda and submissions by different members of Council, who each are asked to direct their energies towards a particular subject e.g. Judges clearing house, Bulletin liason (!!!), you can find the various headings in the Bulletin, beside the listing of Council members.
Members will submit a paper when they wish to make changes in their particular area. Theoretically this gives time for preparation of views before the actual meeting, in practice I seldom found much time was spent on this. Council members should receive the agenda a week before the meeting. One of my chief criticisms is that these papers are often put to one side, many members think that everything can be conducted within the time spent at the meeting, with the result that many decisions are taken on the hoof, and then regretted afterwards.
As to the time involved, this is going to be decided by you and your enthusiasm for the area in which you are involved and how much lobbying you wish to do, both within council and the general membership. I have always been disappointed in the amount of feed-back I had from members, I wish this board had been available to me.
Historically, the position of councillor involves attending around five days meetings, at present held at Stoneleigh. Preparation of meetings is done through papers giving the agenda and submissions by different members of Council, who each are asked to direct their energies towards a particular subject e.g. Judges clearing house, Bulletin liason (!!!), you can find the various headings in the Bulletin, beside the listing of Council members.
Members will submit a paper when they wish to make changes in their particular area. Theoretically this gives time for preparation of views before the actual meeting, in practice I seldom found much time was spent on this. Council members should receive the agenda a week before the meeting. One of my chief criticisms is that these papers are often put to one side, many members think that everything can be conducted within the time spent at the meeting, with the result that many decisions are taken on the hoof, and then regretted afterwards.
As to the time involved, this is going to be decided by you and your enthusiasm for the area in which you are involved and how much lobbying you wish to do, both within council and the general membership. I have always been disappointed in the amount of feed-back I had from members, I wish this board had been available to me.
Hi Beryl, re your penultimate post I am not one to dwell on history - far from it - but I thought it was the best way of illustrating how hard it is to change things through Council and how direct action can sometimes make a big difference.
One piece of the past I must record is the time when, before my mother's illness forced me to step down, you and I were on the Council. My admiration for the the way you battled through all kinds of convoluted transport arrangements finally arriving at the Council Meetings with staff in hand like Moses at the Red Sea was unbounded( and seeing your posts and reading your book it still is).
My recollection of "our" Council is that potential reformers like myself never had a chance. The agenda in the broadest sense of the word was set and managed by a small group and my kind of changes were not on that agenda.It is because most of that group are still at the centre of things that I am pessimistic about serious change coming from the Council.
However you are right we have a new Council and there are one or two promising signs but having said that it is not as new as it was and changes in what they do and just as importantly how they do it are still not in evidence.
One piece of the past I must record is the time when, before my mother's illness forced me to step down, you and I were on the Council. My admiration for the the way you battled through all kinds of convoluted transport arrangements finally arriving at the Council Meetings with staff in hand like Moses at the Red Sea was unbounded( and seeing your posts and reading your book it still is).
My recollection of "our" Council is that potential reformers like myself never had a chance. The agenda in the broadest sense of the word was set and managed by a small group and my kind of changes were not on that agenda.It is because most of that group are still at the centre of things that I am pessimistic about serious change coming from the Council.
However you are right we have a new Council and there are one or two promising signs but having said that it is not as new as it was and changes in what they do and just as importantly how they do it are still not in evidence.
Thank you for all the compliments, though I must say I often felt more like King Canute than Moses and the Red Sea! I confess there is some strength in your arguments.
However the Council have only had one real meeting since being elected. We have some new recruits and they may well be as anxious as you for change, they must be given a chance, too much criticism too soon may take the heart out of it.
Some of the apathy is on the side of the membership, I wonder how may have actually made the effort, and sent a letter of protest about the bulletin.
If enough have made plain what appears to be the sense of loss of the majority, and it is ignored, we shall have good reason to complain.
However the Council have only had one real meeting since being elected. We have some new recruits and they may well be as anxious as you for change, they must be given a chance, too much criticism too soon may take the heart out of it.
Some of the apathy is on the side of the membership, I wonder how may have actually made the effort, and sent a letter of protest about the bulletin.
If enough have made plain what appears to be the sense of loss of the majority, and it is ignored, we shall have good reason to complain.
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Rob & Alison Kirk
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:59 pm
Hi Rod - I had to chuckle to myself when I read your reply: ".....plotting your downfall in a sheep shed!" Sounds funny now, but not at the time. I am sure Council have moved on - I know I have. Therefore, I would like to support your proposals. I gather there are some new faces on Council now, perhaps they would look favourably on your thoughts. Perhaps like-minded members would support you and enable a proper Council election to be held in 2007. During my time on Council, I, as well as others, put forward papers on the management of the Council, so your thoughts are not entirely new.
Perhaps the present day Council could put a 'think tank' committee together, with your involvement.
The present situation:-
The demise of the Bulletin, which I feel could be described as the flagship of the Society, not only in this country, but worldwide, judging by the comments on the web site, is an example - I suspect it is more to do with cost than content.
Comments re cost of running the Society: having no proper elections (due to far fewer members putting their names forward) for the last four/five years; lack of breed promotion (which I gather has now been addressed), so perhaps a small team with outside help would make a more efficient and cost-effective Society.
Robert Kirk
Perhaps the present day Council could put a 'think tank' committee together, with your involvement.
The present situation:-
The demise of the Bulletin, which I feel could be described as the flagship of the Society, not only in this country, but worldwide, judging by the comments on the web site, is an example - I suspect it is more to do with cost than content.
Comments re cost of running the Society: having no proper elections (due to far fewer members putting their names forward) for the last four/five years; lack of breed promotion (which I gather has now been addressed), so perhaps a small team with outside help would make a more efficient and cost-effective Society.
Robert Kirk