Help! Need info on bull

[Sylvia]

Esmeralda is a great grandmother of my bull Vatch Apollo. He is polled and gets about 50% polled calves from mainly disbudded cows. What does this mean to me? Significantly lower vet's bills, that's what. He is black and managed to get a red calf from a black cow this year. What did this mean, a nice surprise. I know history exercises a lot of minds and long pedigrees are fascinating but it is what is happening in the barn now which is of most interest to me.

[Inger]

The pedigree history tells us what we might expect though. :;):

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

The pedigree history tells us what we might expect though.

I'm slow, I did see the wink, but maybe I missed the joke? What does the pedigree history tell us?

[Kathy Millar]

:p hmmm....back to square one......which of Saltaire P's ancestors were red??? You would have thought that with a name like "Firebird", the animal would be red ???

[jim]

Would someone please enlighten me about the Cardiff project? Sounds interesting.
And don't forget - those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

:p hmmm....back to square one......which of Saltaire P's ancestors were red???

It is possible that you may never find a recorded red ancestor. Since red is recessive, it could have been passed down for countless generations without ever doubling up and exhibiting. Even if you find one and only one red ancestor (perhaps back several generations), you can't assume that is where the animal in question got his single red gene from. It might have come down from another entirely black line. Further, since both true red (e) and black (ED) are thought to be mutations from the wildtype (E+), it's possible that that a true-red carrying animal never had a single true-red exhibiting (phenotype) ancestor.

I believe the animal in question carried a single recessive e (true-red) gene.

[Inger]

Well, Kirk, the pedigree should allow us to take an educated guess as to what genes are likely to turn up in the offspring of particular animals. If they have been Black for very many generations, it would be a surprise to get a Red calf. If the Sire or Dam is Red, then it is more likely, though can't be expected, in some cases. If both are Red, then it is highly likely you'll get a Red calf.

An extended pedigree of other members connected by blood, could show up a possible Red gene. Its just a matter of looking wide enough though the pedigree of related animals.

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

Yes, I agree that the pedigree can help you make an educated guess about the probable phenotypes of new calves, but those hidden recessives can double-up and surprise you after many many generations. You can easily have a 10 generation pedigree with no red, and then suddenly have a red. That happens in the Black Angus world where there is an occasional rare red gene among the mostly homozygous blacks.

When these rare events occur, it always makes folks wonder if a bull jumped a fence. Before parentage testing was available, it was up to the decision of the registries to accept an animal based on subjective evidence. With today's DNA testing, registries should consider requiring a DNA parentage test for any low probability events like suspected mutations or appearance of rare recessives. Perhaps registries should put parentage testing policies in place beforehand, so breeders don't feel picked on when required to submit to a test. Perhaps something like this:

Parentage tests will be required for the following scenarios

1. Any red calf with 2 black or dun parents and 4 black or dun grandparents
2. Any black calf with 2 dun parents and 4 dun or red grandparents
3. Any black calf with 2 red parents
4. Any polled calf from two horned parents
5. Any horned calf with 2 polled parents and 4 polled grandparents
6. Any calf whose dam shared a pasture with more than one bull over the age of 150 days within a seven week window centered on the estimated date of conception.
7. Any calf whose dam was AI'd and another bull over the age of 150 days was present within a seven week window centered on the estimated date of conception.

Hmmmm, just an idea, what do you think?

[Mark Bowles]

Kirk,
i think your list is a very valid one that all breeders should take into consideration on a day to day basis when using bulls, especially the window required when other bulls could be present to a cow/heifer after first service, as you say even quite young bulls.Im not sure our membership over here would take too kindly to compulsery testing. We have got as far as compulsery parent verifying our bulls now, which i beleive to be important.
Mark

[Woodmagic]

The criteria is excellent, although I agree with Mark, I don’t think making it compulsory would be much in favour over here, but it would be an excellent advice list for any breeder. In fact some of the information would be difficult to come by, without the assistance of the breeder.
For myself I have never used pedigrees when I am deciding on a breeding. Take an ordinary short pedigree of three generations. It represents seven matings, in each case the resulting inheritance is a lottery, how can you possibly have any idea of what genes the animal carries by looking at its pedigree, by the time you have multiplied those seven permutations. Look at the live animals in the families you are using, and the predominance of the genes you are seeking, and you stand some chance, but if you see something you don’t want, you can be sure your resulting mating will throw it up.

[Inger]

But by throwing the dice often enough, you're bound to get some animals you like and can sell the rest for beef. It takes a long time and a lot of matings to come up with the 'perfect' cow. :D

[Sylvia]

Hello Inger, still basking in sunshine? The rain is heavy and horizontal here today but at least it isn't too cold, or it might have been snow!! Regarding the breeding of a 'perfect' animal, I thought this was in a similar category to people who claim to know 'everything there is to know' about anything really be it animal breeding or anything else. i.e. not achievable. Of course it is possible to breed an animal which meets the criteria of the breeder, or even the show ring, but 'perfect' ? Surely not, however long you have.

[Woodmagic]

I think you will have long wait for the perfect animal, but if you use a sensible recipe, you should have the satisfaction of realisation that you are working towards it, rather than simply waiting for it to turn up, and throwing out all the rest mean time. My limited success provides me with a large part of the pleasure of keeping them.

[Woodmagic]

Jim - Professor Michael Bruford of Cardiff University and Tim Bray PhD student gave a presentation on the Cardiff project at the AGM. Undertaken in conjunction with RBST the aim is to identify introgression from other breeds, the experiment to last three years. With help from many Dexter breeders about 400 samples have been taken, and to date about 150 have been analysed. As I understand it this has confirmed that the breed has not suffered invasion to the same extent as many breeds, and is still very much a breed, although containing a good amount of heterogeneity, which should stand it in very good stead. Work is being undertaken on various other breeds, which could have made a contribution, and we should have results in about a year. The results should provide leads in future breeding and I look forward to it.

[jim]

Thankyou Woodmagic, and a very happy New Year to you all.