Help! Need info on bull
Hello Beryl, The information that I have is that Godstone Esmeralda had many calves, ALL POLLED sired by horned bulls, so it seems certain that she was homozygous polled. If there had been an accidental breeding and her sire was polled of another breed, she would be heterozygous polled (as we know her dam was horned) and some of her calves surely would have been horned. Platinum's blood type was checked by Dr. Kraay at SRC and he found no evidence to prove out-crossing..marion
Marion Cdn.
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jeanthomas
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groubearfarm
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I have just spoken to Philippa Laing (Firebird's Breeder) and he was definately black. She also mentioned the shape of the polled head in Emeralda's offspring's might be a pointer to the breeding. I wonder whether it would be possible to DNA test her living offspring. Fiona
Fiona Miles
Groubear Dexters 31527
Groubear Farm
Cruwys Morchard
Devon
Groubear Dexters 31527
Groubear Farm
Cruwys Morchard
Devon
Godstone Esmerelda had her last calf in 1986 and it would seem all her offspring are dead. There was always a doubt about where the polling came from but we may never know.
As far as I remember Jackie Flaherty had a herd of red polls, correct me if I am wrong, as well at that time, maybe there was an accident or maybe it was a mutation? We didn't have the DNA tools in those days.
According to her calving record Esmerelda had 14 calves, 6 of which were polled and 8 horned, which would have indicated she was heterozygous for polling not homozygous. Templetom Firebird, although black threw quite a lot of reds.
[The picture of my Dexters on the front of the Autumn Ark last year shows a red Firebird cow].
As far as I remember Jackie Flaherty had a herd of red polls, correct me if I am wrong, as well at that time, maybe there was an accident or maybe it was a mutation? We didn't have the DNA tools in those days.
According to her calving record Esmerelda had 14 calves, 6 of which were polled and 8 horned, which would have indicated she was heterozygous for polling not homozygous. Templetom Firebird, although black threw quite a lot of reds.
[The picture of my Dexters on the front of the Autumn Ark last year shows a red Firebird cow].
That is interesting about Esmeralda, Moomin. Not quite the information that I understood so it is really good to hear from someone that knows the herd personally. We don't disbud, that may change in the future, but I have heard that the 'polled' gene is the answer to many disbudding problems. Won't the 'Cardiff' study take care of this argument? Or is that too much to ask.... ??? Liz
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JamsHundred
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Percentages, in a breed as small in numbers as the Dexter breed in the 80's were by most scientific standards five times higher than 1 in 20,000 with some stating 1 in 1,000,000. That 20,000 figure is often quoted, unrealistically, by polled breeders.
DNA parentage testing has been used for nigh on four decades now, and certainly was an often used tool in some breeds, even a required one, by the 90's. A mutation of this importance in a rare, horned breed, deserved no less than to be tested and proved. To date, I know of not a single genetically proven mutation in the Dexter breed. I know the owner of Esmerelda was approached and asked permission to have that animal tested, because I've been told so by the Dexter breeder who made the request and have no reason to doubt the assertion.
In the US, a herd of horned Herefords has been closed for 122 years with never a mutation. A Dexter herd closed for 40 years has no mutations, and Ms. Rutherford whose herd has been closed for half a century has seen no mutations. And every supposed "mutation" has taken place on farms where polled animals were kept as well as the Dexters. This development is far too great a threat to this breed to have been permitted without substantiation of genetic mutation.
The worrisome thing besides more influx of genetics that dilute the DNA of this breed in ways we cannot yet know,
( what valuable characteristics are being displaced by others for instance), is that the breed is being threatened by change from a horned breed to a polled breed, and with polled being dominant, the transition could be rapid. It has taken only 20 years for one AI bull to garner a place on nearly one-third of US pedigrees, and the polled percentages are increasing at an alarming rate as well.
I fear this wonderful breed cannot withstand the onslaught of convenience, and frankly, though a little bit time consuming, and somewhat uncomfortable for the calf, dehorning is simply not such a burden that we should forego it, and risk losing traditional characteristics of the breed instead.
Thank you Moomin for posting information about the progeny of Esmerelda. An entirely different presentation has been posted over and over on some discussion groups and used to bolster arguments regarding the genetic status of this bull.
DNA parentage testing has been used for nigh on four decades now, and certainly was an often used tool in some breeds, even a required one, by the 90's. A mutation of this importance in a rare, horned breed, deserved no less than to be tested and proved. To date, I know of not a single genetically proven mutation in the Dexter breed. I know the owner of Esmerelda was approached and asked permission to have that animal tested, because I've been told so by the Dexter breeder who made the request and have no reason to doubt the assertion.
In the US, a herd of horned Herefords has been closed for 122 years with never a mutation. A Dexter herd closed for 40 years has no mutations, and Ms. Rutherford whose herd has been closed for half a century has seen no mutations. And every supposed "mutation" has taken place on farms where polled animals were kept as well as the Dexters. This development is far too great a threat to this breed to have been permitted without substantiation of genetic mutation.
The worrisome thing besides more influx of genetics that dilute the DNA of this breed in ways we cannot yet know,
( what valuable characteristics are being displaced by others for instance), is that the breed is being threatened by change from a horned breed to a polled breed, and with polled being dominant, the transition could be rapid. It has taken only 20 years for one AI bull to garner a place on nearly one-third of US pedigrees, and the polled percentages are increasing at an alarming rate as well.
I fear this wonderful breed cannot withstand the onslaught of convenience, and frankly, though a little bit time consuming, and somewhat uncomfortable for the calf, dehorning is simply not such a burden that we should forego it, and risk losing traditional characteristics of the breed instead.
Thank you Moomin for posting information about the progeny of Esmerelda. An entirely different presentation has been posted over and over on some discussion groups and used to bolster arguments regarding the genetic status of this bull.
I am not so prepared to dismiss the problems associated with disbudding. In this country, except in the case of chemical cauterisation under seven days of age, (seldom practiced on this side of the pond) it is illegal to disbud without a local anaesthetic, and has to be undertaken by the owner or an authorised practitioner In general I am not in favour of rules and regulations, bur am grateful for our welfare legislation.
I loathe the job, apart from the operation itself; there is always the hazard of a sudden hot spell and fly attack.
I horrified Andrew, an enthusiastic ‘pro horn’ man, when the Cardiff project was first mooted, and I suggested it might come up with a genuine poll mutation.
Ratios and percentages are not certainties, I have never forgotten the poor smallholder with one cow, who had six bull calves in succession, or the occasional case where a short leg breeder had a long run of live calves.
Polling or its absence does not in itself prove Dexter genes. If one takes the case of a Murray Grey first cross and a Jersey first cross, the Jersey would have horns, but no more Dexter genes than the Murray Grey. If I were forced to make a choice between the two, I would pick the polled Murray Grey cross. In the beginning polls were not recorded, so the Herd Book does not provide an answer. Pam assured me all Esmeralda’s calves were polled. I agree that any introduction from another breed means the reduction of Dexter genes, but discriminating by horns or the lack of them does not provide the answer.
The brindle is associated with the cross Jersey, and I don’t remember seeing it before the ‘50’s, but the red has always been there, to my knowledge. Mine came from the Pentre Hobyn herd and that takes one back to the 1920’s. It could have come in, as I suspect the bulldog did, from the Devon cross, but that is really going back into history, and long before any Herd Book.
There is little point in delving into history, we now have the advantage of DNA, and I would like to wait for the outcome of the project, and see what does surface.
I loathe the job, apart from the operation itself; there is always the hazard of a sudden hot spell and fly attack.
I horrified Andrew, an enthusiastic ‘pro horn’ man, when the Cardiff project was first mooted, and I suggested it might come up with a genuine poll mutation.
Ratios and percentages are not certainties, I have never forgotten the poor smallholder with one cow, who had six bull calves in succession, or the occasional case where a short leg breeder had a long run of live calves.
Polling or its absence does not in itself prove Dexter genes. If one takes the case of a Murray Grey first cross and a Jersey first cross, the Jersey would have horns, but no more Dexter genes than the Murray Grey. If I were forced to make a choice between the two, I would pick the polled Murray Grey cross. In the beginning polls were not recorded, so the Herd Book does not provide an answer. Pam assured me all Esmeralda’s calves were polled. I agree that any introduction from another breed means the reduction of Dexter genes, but discriminating by horns or the lack of them does not provide the answer.
The brindle is associated with the cross Jersey, and I don’t remember seeing it before the ‘50’s, but the red has always been there, to my knowledge. Mine came from the Pentre Hobyn herd and that takes one back to the 1920’s. It could have come in, as I suspect the bulldog did, from the Devon cross, but that is really going back into history, and long before any Herd Book.
There is little point in delving into history, we now have the advantage of DNA, and I would like to wait for the outcome of the project, and see what does surface.
hi,
like Marion I had heard the 14 calves all from horned sires and all were polled, so it's interesting to hear a differing view on this.
Moomin, if you have the herd books could you let us know the animals that you say were horned and then those that were polled, that would help get this sorted.
Thanks all for a great thread,
Carol K
like Marion I had heard the 14 calves all from horned sires and all were polled, so it's interesting to hear a differing view on this.
Moomin, if you have the herd books could you let us know the animals that you say were horned and then those that were polled, that would help get this sorted.
Thanks all for a great thread,
Carol K
Regarding the Devon, and the bulldog, it has to be surmise, but perhaps the Cardiff project may shed some light on it. When I first moved to Devon I was surprised when meeting some Devon cattle on the moor, by their similarity to our short leg, in fact I said at the time, that if they had been Dexters I should have thought they were carrying the bulldog gene, and thought no more of it.
Some twenty years later, my vet arriving on my farm, told me he had just removed a bulldog calf, the result of a pure Devon pedigree mating. Much more recently I have employed an ex-huntsman, who told me that when he worked in the hunt kennels he had quite frequently dealt with pure Devon bulldogs. In both cases while it is obviously not capable of verification, there was nothing to be gained by the source in providing me with mis-information.
We do know that the Devon was imported into Ireland. What would provide a better candidate to ‘improve’ the Dexter than a dwarf Devon, in days when the genetic implications of the lethal were not understood?
I have always maintained that during the centuries that the Celtic cow ran wild on the hills, without man‘s intervention, they could not have survived with the handicap of the bulldog. According to rumour, they were ‘improved’ probably in the eighteenth century. It is unfortunate that the owners of the time were illiterate; we shall have to see if Cardiff can come up with some answers. As far as the red goes, it is often to be found as a recessive to black in cattle, but it could have been introduced via the cross.
If the Devon cross was undertaken, it would account for the wild variation in size, since it gives - dwarf Celtic, full size Celtic, dwarf Devon cross, full size Devon cross, dwarf Devon and full size Devon, all the ranges in between, and is another argument for not breeding big ‘Dexters’! We are dealing with the Devon of those days, not the elephant it has become today.
Some twenty years later, my vet arriving on my farm, told me he had just removed a bulldog calf, the result of a pure Devon pedigree mating. Much more recently I have employed an ex-huntsman, who told me that when he worked in the hunt kennels he had quite frequently dealt with pure Devon bulldogs. In both cases while it is obviously not capable of verification, there was nothing to be gained by the source in providing me with mis-information.
We do know that the Devon was imported into Ireland. What would provide a better candidate to ‘improve’ the Dexter than a dwarf Devon, in days when the genetic implications of the lethal were not understood?
I have always maintained that during the centuries that the Celtic cow ran wild on the hills, without man‘s intervention, they could not have survived with the handicap of the bulldog. According to rumour, they were ‘improved’ probably in the eighteenth century. It is unfortunate that the owners of the time were illiterate; we shall have to see if Cardiff can come up with some answers. As far as the red goes, it is often to be found as a recessive to black in cattle, but it could have been introduced via the cross.
If the Devon cross was undertaken, it would account for the wild variation in size, since it gives - dwarf Celtic, full size Celtic, dwarf Devon cross, full size Devon cross, dwarf Devon and full size Devon, all the ranges in between, and is another argument for not breeding big ‘Dexters’! We are dealing with the Devon of those days, not the elephant it has become today.
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Kathy Millar
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