I suppose I am being rather simplistic but as we go onwards, more animals will be born with 10 generations of 'pure bred' ancestors. This is obviously clouded by where/when the experimental/other breeds appear but by the general laws of nature, the impure qualities will weaken, generation by generation. I am sure all breeds have impurities though both mistakes and dishonesty but the non-short Dexter shows at least some of its true inheritance and its descendants will show more. As breeders we note the differences and breed accordingly.
My old (14) Leapmill Peeweet is a dead ringer of old type Dexters and she has white on the udder .... she also has an experimental animal in her pedigree. She breeds lovely, beefy Dexters, true to type and sometimes with white behind the naval, there is no outward sign of the experimental ancestor, indeed I would like to know in what way the cow was experimental!
Jo
Dexter in the paper - TB or not TB?
The experimental animals originate from the Atlantic Herd of Mrs Tanner. Angela a Jersey X Aberdeen Angus heifer was put to a full pedigree Dexter (Atlantic Knowall M1882). The resultant bull (Atlantic Anchor Experimental 1) was then used on the pure Dexter cow, Atlantic Fenella F8097 resulting in Atlantic Finbar Exp 10/B. Atlantic Finbar was collected for AI.
Each Experimental animal must be looked at individually to ascertain the % purity as the letter "B" after the Exp number demotes Bull and the letter "C" denotes Cow. Therefore take great care in interpreting pedigrees.
Each Experimental animal must be looked at individually to ascertain the % purity as the letter "B" after the Exp number demotes Bull and the letter "C" denotes Cow. Therefore take great care in interpreting pedigrees.
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Do not be confused by the C and B as detailed by Ted and the A, B and C of the appendices, which of course does generally relate to the degree of purity of the animal - although even that may not be 100% true as some animals may have been placed in Appendix register because parents although pure had not been registered or because they did not conform completely to the breed standard - eg excess white.
Duncan, quite sure some longstanding breeders could elaborate on these points for us!
Duncan, quite sure some longstanding breeders could elaborate on these points for us!
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
In some historical accounts, the writers mention Dexters coloured Black, brown, Black and white and some brown and white. (Look in John P's Dexter Information website). If purebred Dexters are producing calves with white on their tummies and have been DNA'd for their parentage, then I think its very hard to say that that calf shouldn't be included in the herd book. Recessive genes have a habit of popping out somewhere along the lines. I've seen old pictures of Dexters that have quite a lot of white along their belly.
Inger
NZ
NZ
The Dexter breed, is still suffering from a breeding bottleneck in the late 1960’s. The breed nearly foundered, and the few remaining were quite largely crossed to avoid the bulldog calf. The numbers of pure-breds remaining was so small, that it virtually ruled out grading up, and cannot balance the large expansion of recent years. Mating two cross-breds will not improve purity even after ten generations, and since it is a matter of chance, it is still possible the animal will carry non-Dexter genes tem generations on, even when it has been mated with pure-breds. Hence my appeal, which was not a rhetorical request, please do take a good look, and see if you can find any animals with ten generations of pure breeding. This is the object of the genetics experiment, to try and find and identify any pure bred Dexters, so that we can use them to multiply the amount of Dexter genes within the breed.
Finbar was Mrs. Tanner’s potential answer to the bulldog, she believed that the problem was sex linked, and if she bred a bull with no Dexter male genes in his make-up, she could eliminate the bulldog calf. I was in detailed correspondence with her at this time. She refused to give anyone information on how Finbar was bred, but since he did not carry a Dexter ‘y’ chromosome, his pedigree is not as stated in the Herd Book. The males were Shorthorn, and Jersey, she wouldn’t use the Aberdeen Angus because she was aware that it had a dwarfing problem of its own, she did tell me, at one point, that my guess on Finbar’s breeding was the nearest. When I realised the genetics didn’t add up, I dropped the Welsh Black which I had thought a closer cross, and went back to my Dexters, when Finbar started siring bulldog calves, Mrs. Tanner sadly slaughtered her cattle, and went out of Dexters.
White on the underline, whether in front or behind the navel, is controlled by the same gene. Many of the Dexters at the beginning of the 20th century show it. The oldest picture I have, is one taken at Manchester show in 1869, the cow has a totally white udder. Colour fashions come and go, but I believe Dexters with white on the underline have every right to be called Dexters.
Finbar was Mrs. Tanner’s potential answer to the bulldog, she believed that the problem was sex linked, and if she bred a bull with no Dexter male genes in his make-up, she could eliminate the bulldog calf. I was in detailed correspondence with her at this time. She refused to give anyone information on how Finbar was bred, but since he did not carry a Dexter ‘y’ chromosome, his pedigree is not as stated in the Herd Book. The males were Shorthorn, and Jersey, she wouldn’t use the Aberdeen Angus because she was aware that it had a dwarfing problem of its own, she did tell me, at one point, that my guess on Finbar’s breeding was the nearest. When I realised the genetics didn’t add up, I dropped the Welsh Black which I had thought a closer cross, and went back to my Dexters, when Finbar started siring bulldog calves, Mrs. Tanner sadly slaughtered her cattle, and went out of Dexters.
White on the underline, whether in front or behind the navel, is controlled by the same gene. Many of the Dexters at the beginning of the 20th century show it. The oldest picture I have, is one taken at Manchester show in 1869, the cow has a totally white udder. Colour fashions come and go, but I believe Dexters with white on the underline have every right to be called Dexters.
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JamsHundred
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:14 am
I have early herdbooks from the mid 40's into the 70's ( missing a few). I was interested in researching an American Pedigree, and began making a list of all the appendix animals.
( Still unfinished - - -- but in the works).
Here is my list of the first animals on the "A" Appendix.
I have records on the first "B" animals as well as the "C"
By 1957, there were just a few animals shy of 150 logged into the appendix registry. .I believe all of them previous to the Tanner experiments.
The order of the following information ( since there seems not to be room for it to all be on one line?) is:
First the appendix number of the animal ( A-1), name of the animal, year of birth, Sire, Dam, Breeder Name, Owner name, and the roman numerals are the herd book in which the entry is found.
A-1 BOURTON-HILL MYSTERY 1944 Black MARSH PUCK 1340 UNKNOWN MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-2 BOURTON-HILL PIMPERNEL 1935 RED UNREG DEX BULL BOURTON-HILL SCARLET PIMPERNEL 3067 MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-3 BOURTON-HILL PIMPERNEL 2ND 1941 BLACK UNREG DEX BULL BOURTON-HILL PIMPERNEL ( A-2) MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-4 BOURTON-HILL REDDIE 1937 RED UNREG DEX BULL BOURTON-HILL MYRA ( ?) MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-5 BOURTON-HILL ROSE 1940 BLACK NA NA MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-6 JULIANA 1937 RED NOT KNOWN NOT KNOWN MRS H R PELLY MRS A ABBEY XLVI
A-7 TINSEL 1937 BLACK NOT KNOWN NOT KNOWN MRS H R PELLY MRS A ABBEY XLVI
A-8 DOXY OF DIN 1945 BLACK NOT KNOWN HUSSEY OF DIN APP.A.10 T P HUSSEY MR J F ROSS XLVII
A-9 FIREFLY ? RED PENTRE HOBYN JOHN UNKNOWN MRS ASTLEY MISS E WALDEN XLVII
A-10 HUSSEY OF DIN 1942 BLACK NOT KNOWN NOT KNOWN T P HUSSEY MR J F ROSS XLVII
A-11 MISSEY OF DIN 9/1947 BLACK NOT KNOWN HUSSEY OF DIN APP.A.10 T P HUSSEY MR J F ROSS XLVII
Judy Sponaugle
( Still unfinished - - -- but in the works).
Here is my list of the first animals on the "A" Appendix.
I have records on the first "B" animals as well as the "C"
By 1957, there were just a few animals shy of 150 logged into the appendix registry. .I believe all of them previous to the Tanner experiments.
The order of the following information ( since there seems not to be room for it to all be on one line?) is:
First the appendix number of the animal ( A-1), name of the animal, year of birth, Sire, Dam, Breeder Name, Owner name, and the roman numerals are the herd book in which the entry is found.
A-1 BOURTON-HILL MYSTERY 1944 Black MARSH PUCK 1340 UNKNOWN MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-2 BOURTON-HILL PIMPERNEL 1935 RED UNREG DEX BULL BOURTON-HILL SCARLET PIMPERNEL 3067 MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-3 BOURTON-HILL PIMPERNEL 2ND 1941 BLACK UNREG DEX BULL BOURTON-HILL PIMPERNEL ( A-2) MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-4 BOURTON-HILL REDDIE 1937 RED UNREG DEX BULL BOURTON-HILL MYRA ( ?) MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-5 BOURTON-HILL ROSE 1940 BLACK NA NA MRS F A BROWN MAJ J E ADLARD XLV
A-6 JULIANA 1937 RED NOT KNOWN NOT KNOWN MRS H R PELLY MRS A ABBEY XLVI
A-7 TINSEL 1937 BLACK NOT KNOWN NOT KNOWN MRS H R PELLY MRS A ABBEY XLVI
A-8 DOXY OF DIN 1945 BLACK NOT KNOWN HUSSEY OF DIN APP.A.10 T P HUSSEY MR J F ROSS XLVII
A-9 FIREFLY ? RED PENTRE HOBYN JOHN UNKNOWN MRS ASTLEY MISS E WALDEN XLVII
A-10 HUSSEY OF DIN 1942 BLACK NOT KNOWN NOT KNOWN T P HUSSEY MR J F ROSS XLVII
A-11 MISSEY OF DIN 9/1947 BLACK NOT KNOWN HUSSEY OF DIN APP.A.10 T P HUSSEY MR J F ROSS XLVII
Judy Sponaugle
Hi I saw that the 2nd test on this animal had come back as positive, which was rather sad, however low and behold there was another picture of the little lad, and guess what the rare brindle dexter has turned into a nice black, as they so often do, so many young calves go through the mixed coat syndrome as they change from their birth colour to their final colour.
Ann:p :p
Ann:p :p
Posted: April 04 2006,1:06
Hi I saw that the 2nd test on this animal had come back as positive, which was rather sad, however low and behold there was another picture of the little lad, and guess what the rare brindle dexter has turned into a nice black, as they so often do, so many young calves go through the mixed coat syndrome as they change from their birth colour to their final colour.
Ann:p :p
Hi I saw that the 2nd test on this animal had come back as positive, which was rather sad, however low and behold there was another picture of the little lad, and guess what the rare brindle dexter has turned into a nice black, as they so often do, so many young calves go through the mixed coat syndrome as they change from their birth colour to their final colour.
Ann:p :p
Perhaps I should have signed it ‘Woodmagic’, my reply came out in the March edition, and two more responses were published in the April copy. I would love to have been a fly on the editor’s office wall, during that month. I suspect we shall not find unfavourable material on the Dexter for a while. Many thanks to Fiona, for providing so many contributors with the necessary information.
Perhaps I should have signed it ‘Woodmagic’, my reply came out in the March edition, and two more responses were published in the April copy. I would love to have been a fly on the editor’s office wall, during that month. I suspect we shall not find unfavourable material on the Dexter for a while. Many thanks to Fiona, for providing so many contributors with the necessary information.