Live birth guarantee
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
Never heard of this one.
Put it this way, I purchased my first cow with a guarantee that it was pregnant. It had a dead calf but I didn't feel that I had any complaint with the seller.
If I'm selling a cow in calf then I'll guarantee that it's pregnant.
Having said that I'm not sure what I'd do if it wasn't, perhaps I should make an agreement on that issue next time I'm selling?
Put it this way, I purchased my first cow with a guarantee that it was pregnant. It had a dead calf but I didn't feel that I had any complaint with the seller.
If I'm selling a cow in calf then I'll guarantee that it's pregnant.
Having said that I'm not sure what I'd do if it wasn't, perhaps I should make an agreement on that issue next time I'm selling?
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
If cattle are sold at a public auction, there are usually standard conditions which apply. These are really too complicated and I have to admit I could not repeat them exactly. Basically if a cow or heifer is stated to be in calf by the seller either in the catalogue or when the animal goes through the ring, the buyer has the right to expect thisto be the case. Usually the animal can be returned, and the money given back, or compensation can be given. I am more familiar with finishers claiming compensation when a heifer turns out in calf which should not have been, and the compensation then is a substantial proportion of the sale price.
However when an animal changes hands privately the buyer has none of these protections and it is purely down to what was agreed between the two parties, which is often difficult to prove.
I do think that if someone says a cow or heifer is in calf they are morally obliged to do something about it, but if it was a private sale this will be impossible to enforce.
I also think that to be fair there is little way the seller can guarantee that the cow will have a live calf if he/she has no control over it - eg has it been exposed to infection in its new home such as BVD which it did not encounter before the sale? I would be quite happy to state at the time of sale whether or not a female is in calf AT THAT TIME, but not to guarantee matters beyond my control.
Duncan
However when an animal changes hands privately the buyer has none of these protections and it is purely down to what was agreed between the two parties, which is often difficult to prove.
I do think that if someone says a cow or heifer is in calf they are morally obliged to do something about it, but if it was a private sale this will be impossible to enforce.
I also think that to be fair there is little way the seller can guarantee that the cow will have a live calf if he/she has no control over it - eg has it been exposed to infection in its new home such as BVD which it did not encounter before the sale? I would be quite happy to state at the time of sale whether or not a female is in calf AT THAT TIME, but not to guarantee matters beyond my control.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Hi
I would have thought that if a female if P.D before the point of sale and a vets certificate says that, then if for some reason between that date and the due date of calving the cow or heifer loses it calf, this is not the sellars fault, I never say an animal is in calf unless I have had it P.D by my vet and even this is not written in stone !! as I'm still waiting for one my vet said was in calf to calve as the P.D is only for that momnet in time, the stress of a sale or moving the animal or the upset caused if you introduce her into a herd can make her lose her calf if she is in the early stages of pregancy
If the animal is sold as running with a bull, at a said price, then I don't see how any one has any comeback on the sellar.
I bought a heifer years ago at Stoneleigh and she calved a deformed calf which I had to get the vet to, however I just put it down to bad luck, my vet said it was probly due to her picking up a virus at the Sale.
As the old saying goes, there are no certainties in life except death.
Ann
:p
I would have thought that if a female if P.D before the point of sale and a vets certificate says that, then if for some reason between that date and the due date of calving the cow or heifer loses it calf, this is not the sellars fault, I never say an animal is in calf unless I have had it P.D by my vet and even this is not written in stone !! as I'm still waiting for one my vet said was in calf to calve as the P.D is only for that momnet in time, the stress of a sale or moving the animal or the upset caused if you introduce her into a herd can make her lose her calf if she is in the early stages of pregancy
If the animal is sold as running with a bull, at a said price, then I don't see how any one has any comeback on the sellar.
I bought a heifer years ago at Stoneleigh and she calved a deformed calf which I had to get the vet to, however I just put it down to bad luck, my vet said it was probly due to her picking up a virus at the Sale.
As the old saying goes, there are no certainties in life except death.
Ann
:pHmmm, that was my opinion too. But I'm dealing with someone at the moment who seems to believe that if an animal doesn't produce a live baby then the seller ought to be the one to sort it out, preferably by exchanging the animal which hasn't produced for one that will (at the seller's expense of course) or providing a replacement for the missing babe. I believe that a free visit to stud would be reasonable, but because the seller has no control over what happens to the animal after it leaves I can't see that seller's responsibility can go further than that. It also seems to be failing to acclimatise new livestock owners to what we all know only too well, things do not always run to plan and the sooner you realise that the better. They are living animals, for heavens sake, not mechanical or electrical goods.
Silvia.
If the purchaser wants a live birth guarantee there is an easy way to provide it.
Sell the animal after it has calved, obviously this will mean that the purchaser has two animals to pay for, and the feed till calving at their extra cost.
Steve
If the purchaser wants a live birth guarantee there is an easy way to provide it.
Sell the animal after it has calved, obviously this will mean that the purchaser has two animals to pay for, and the feed till calving at their extra cost.
Steve
Humberdale Dexters (31319)
Holderness
East Yorkshire
Holderness
East Yorkshire
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hazel clarke
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:40 pm
Hi all, I'm afraid that I might be thought of as being rather "hard" as far as in-calf animals that I might sell. there are just too many things that one has no control over with live animals, and so many things that can go wrong. One can have a live calf which just does not seem to have the will to live, or an early pregnancy that is lost with little to show for it, or.......... you name it it can happen and probebly will!!
I know that when small numbers are kept every loss appears to be a disaster, and those of us who keep more also feel the pain of any loss.
I think that I would be very careful with any futuer dealings with your buyer, Sylvia.
I know that when small numbers are kept every loss appears to be a disaster, and those of us who keep more also feel the pain of any loss.
I think that I would be very careful with any futuer dealings with your buyer, Sylvia.
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Kathy Millar
- Posts: 725
- Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 4:53 pm
- Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Hi, I have been "listening" into this forum for a while - find it a wealth of information, but haven't felt that I had anything to add until now.
I am in Australia and live birth guarantees are VERY common with horses. Usually the agreement is that if the mare fails to produce a foal that lives for a couple of days (depends on the vendors terms) the owner of the mare is offered a return service - sometimes the following year if the breeding season is at an end.
The situation is not the same with cattle. When we have purchased in-calf cows they either come PTIC, or the onus is on the buyer to have them pregnancy checked and usually if they are empty the seller will loan a bull. BUT this depends on the agreement made between both parties - it needs to be clarified by both parties before the sale. Some sellers only offer cows as having run with the bull - no guarantees at all, but I would expect to pay more for animals that have returned a positive test, particularly when the vendor has paid for the testing. There should never be any assumption that just because a cow is PTIC she will produce a live calf.
I am in Australia and live birth guarantees are VERY common with horses. Usually the agreement is that if the mare fails to produce a foal that lives for a couple of days (depends on the vendors terms) the owner of the mare is offered a return service - sometimes the following year if the breeding season is at an end.
The situation is not the same with cattle. When we have purchased in-calf cows they either come PTIC, or the onus is on the buyer to have them pregnancy checked and usually if they are empty the seller will loan a bull. BUT this depends on the agreement made between both parties - it needs to be clarified by both parties before the sale. Some sellers only offer cows as having run with the bull - no guarantees at all, but I would expect to pay more for animals that have returned a positive test, particularly when the vendor has paid for the testing. There should never be any assumption that just because a cow is PTIC she will produce a live calf.
Hi It is worth noting that some cows will act as though they are in bulling when they are actually in calf
So if you have sold a cow guarantted in calf, I would insist on a vets certificate to say it was not.
Much better to play safe as either get them P.D. before the day they are sold or sell them as running with the bull and no come back.
I do think that if the new owner is starting out its better for them to pay the addittional cost of knowing a cow or heifer is in calf as its very disappointing thinking your new dexter is increasing in size because she is in calf when in fact she is not.
There are also some rather unscrulous people around as I have heard of several new comers being sold over 30mths heifers which do not calf, I have recently sent a over 30mth old heifer of as I just could not get her in calf, no matter what I tried, normally I would not have kept her that long, however she had a lot going for her, but sadly it was not to be.
However I would not have sold her on, knowing her problems.
Ann
So if you have sold a cow guarantted in calf, I would insist on a vets certificate to say it was not.
Much better to play safe as either get them P.D. before the day they are sold or sell them as running with the bull and no come back.
I do think that if the new owner is starting out its better for them to pay the addittional cost of knowing a cow or heifer is in calf as its very disappointing thinking your new dexter is increasing in size because she is in calf when in fact she is not.
There are also some rather unscrulous people around as I have heard of several new comers being sold over 30mths heifers which do not calf, I have recently sent a over 30mth old heifer of as I just could not get her in calf, no matter what I tried, normally I would not have kept her that long, however she had a lot going for her, but sadly it was not to be.
However I would not have sold her on, knowing her problems.
Ann
Honesty must be paramount when selling animals, I agree Ann.
I am going to have my females scanned rather than PD'd much less invasive and last time it showed a cow had an infection which was not apparent through the PD she had previously. The cows which are in later pregnancy can be scanned externally so I asked him to do that first. Imagine my delight when a cow, PD'd a couple of weeks before and found 'empty' was according to the scan, due to calve in 4 months from the scan... resulting in excellent bull calf. Jo
I am going to have my females scanned rather than PD'd much less invasive and last time it showed a cow had an infection which was not apparent through the PD she had previously. The cows which are in later pregnancy can be scanned externally so I asked him to do that first. Imagine my delight when a cow, PD'd a couple of weeks before and found 'empty' was according to the scan, due to calve in 4 months from the scan... resulting in excellent bull calf. Jo