I must admit that I would be prepared to have some brindles for fun but I also have crossbred heifers for meat but neither would be registered ..... when showing one has to put the herdbook number on the application, is an entry without a HB No. refused? I thought it would be but perhaps the show officials are in charge of that
Jo
PS Most interesting subject this, I hadn't realised how many brindles there may be.
Dexter in the paper - TB or not TB?
I was disappointed in the general response to this subject. I confess I was somewhat miffed at the reference to ’rare brindle’ Dexters, these appear in the Dexter where an original cross with a Jersey resurfaces in later generations, usually it remains hidden as long as the animal inherits the black gene and will re-appear when the red gene is inherited. The Jersey was a popular cross, used to avoid the bulldog, at the time the bulldog was at its height.
However, I think the owner deserves support from any thinking stock-keeper, who believes the government was wrong to give itself powers against which, there is no legal appeal. Considerably more damage would have occurred during the last Foot and Mouth outbreak, but for one or two good lawyers, heaven help us, if there is another outbreak, and no recourse.
Yes, Duncan, I live in an embattled area, I am one who is sick with apprehension when a test falls due, as is everybody in this county. As I write this, I am waiting the result on a little bull calf I have just sold, superbly bred, and as good as they come, but he may get his death sentence today, and never reach his prospective owner. Mine is a completely closed herd, and I have no badgers on the place, but there is no logic in this disease. I am sure badgers are sometimes implicated, but to focus all attention on them is mad, a lot of wild life is probably also blameworthy. If you look at that map issued to us recently, you will see that the hot spots are also great deer country, and deer are much more mobile than badgers. We certainly need more money and resources to try and resolve the problem, and it would be good to feel we had more than ‘luke-warm’ support, if we happen to be unlucky enough to live in a blighted area.
However, I think the owner deserves support from any thinking stock-keeper, who believes the government was wrong to give itself powers against which, there is no legal appeal. Considerably more damage would have occurred during the last Foot and Mouth outbreak, but for one or two good lawyers, heaven help us, if there is another outbreak, and no recourse.
Yes, Duncan, I live in an embattled area, I am one who is sick with apprehension when a test falls due, as is everybody in this county. As I write this, I am waiting the result on a little bull calf I have just sold, superbly bred, and as good as they come, but he may get his death sentence today, and never reach his prospective owner. Mine is a completely closed herd, and I have no badgers on the place, but there is no logic in this disease. I am sure badgers are sometimes implicated, but to focus all attention on them is mad, a lot of wild life is probably also blameworthy. If you look at that map issued to us recently, you will see that the hot spots are also great deer country, and deer are much more mobile than badgers. We certainly need more money and resources to try and resolve the problem, and it would be good to feel we had more than ‘luke-warm’ support, if we happen to be unlucky enough to live in a blighted area.
-
Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
I siancerely hope no-one in a TB affected area thinks I am unsympathetic to their plight. It is indeed a dreadful business, and it certainly is not always if ever easy to have faith in government approach to the matter.
however I do think that the absolute priority which should have been faced two if not three decades ago must be to stop spread of the disease into new areas, and the only way to limit that is to ban the movement of cattle from infected areas to clear areas. I do realise how difficult and unpopular this would be, but it would have been a lot easier 30 years ago. If it is not done where is the spread going to stop?
I also find it difficult to believe that the TB we are now suffering from is exactly the same as the TB of old. My home area in Argyll was badly affected by TB in cattle, and many folk I know a little older than myself (55) suffered personally from the transfer of TB from cattle to humans. The area was awash with badgers, our own farm had between 6 and 10 setts in use at any one time with the largest having 28 different entrances. But the standard testing programme got rid of TB in Argyll. As far as I can see there must be some alteration in the strain of TB. I just hope that in areas where it has spread recently it can be cleared before it becomes established in the wildlife.
I have tried to avoid saying anything in judgment of the lady with the calf causing the problem. Sometimes individuals just have to make a protest of some sort. I do hope that she has the problem calf effectively isolated from her other stock, as it is clearly possible that it is infected.
Duncan
however I do think that the absolute priority which should have been faced two if not three decades ago must be to stop spread of the disease into new areas, and the only way to limit that is to ban the movement of cattle from infected areas to clear areas. I do realise how difficult and unpopular this would be, but it would have been a lot easier 30 years ago. If it is not done where is the spread going to stop?
I also find it difficult to believe that the TB we are now suffering from is exactly the same as the TB of old. My home area in Argyll was badly affected by TB in cattle, and many folk I know a little older than myself (55) suffered personally from the transfer of TB from cattle to humans. The area was awash with badgers, our own farm had between 6 and 10 setts in use at any one time with the largest having 28 different entrances. But the standard testing programme got rid of TB in Argyll. As far as I can see there must be some alteration in the strain of TB. I just hope that in areas where it has spread recently it can be cleared before it becomes established in the wildlife.
I have tried to avoid saying anything in judgment of the lady with the calf causing the problem. Sometimes individuals just have to make a protest of some sort. I do hope that she has the problem calf effectively isolated from her other stock, as it is clearly possible that it is infected.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Well said, Beryl.
We should all stick together on this one and give each other as much support as we can. Brindle issue aside, any caring owner will say anything that may help get a reprieve. I certainly pleaded that my animals had bloodlines that needed to be preserved and that they were a "rare breed" ( minority means nothing when arguing a case with officials) when fighting for their lives in the Foot and Mouth outbreak. And who knows, the way TB is going, in areas that have the majority of Dexters, they could yet become a Rare breed again.
I looked at the Radio 4 website, and some of the venemous comments against farmers was a real eye opener to me. The lack of understanding of the issue amongst the urban population is alarming. Hence their opposition to a badger cull. I thought the same thing as Ann : if it was a threat to dogs, for example, something that affects most people not just the countryside, then people would be crying out for urgent action.
The point to be made is " what good can it do slaughtering yet another cow/calf, when nothing else is being done to tackle TB?" Yes, cows are responsible for spreading TB, and so is wildlife. Something must be done for the sake of these animals.
At our local secondary school, there were 2 cases of TB last year, and yet strangely, we have now been told that children in this area are no longer going to be vaccinated as routine. What is happening?!
Beryl mentioned deer. In Foot and Mouth, it was stated that all cloven footed animals including deer could get the disease. Whilst animals were culled in this area, deer were running through the farm yards. No culling of wild deer ever took place, so did they never get it? did they get it and recover ( as most animals will) or is it still lurking out there? Not good to consider.
I think it needs a well run publicity campaign by the NFU or similar, along the lines of "How many more of us must die?" with a picture of a really cute looking dexter ( not brindle!!) to get the public to see that cows can be as cute as badgers, and that hundreds are being culled.
Finally, it is also an issue about the reliablity of the test, because I think we probably all know of someone who has had cattle culled only for the post mortem to be negative to the disease.
That is hard to bear.
Good luck to everyone.
Penny
We should all stick together on this one and give each other as much support as we can. Brindle issue aside, any caring owner will say anything that may help get a reprieve. I certainly pleaded that my animals had bloodlines that needed to be preserved and that they were a "rare breed" ( minority means nothing when arguing a case with officials) when fighting for their lives in the Foot and Mouth outbreak. And who knows, the way TB is going, in areas that have the majority of Dexters, they could yet become a Rare breed again.
I looked at the Radio 4 website, and some of the venemous comments against farmers was a real eye opener to me. The lack of understanding of the issue amongst the urban population is alarming. Hence their opposition to a badger cull. I thought the same thing as Ann : if it was a threat to dogs, for example, something that affects most people not just the countryside, then people would be crying out for urgent action.
The point to be made is " what good can it do slaughtering yet another cow/calf, when nothing else is being done to tackle TB?" Yes, cows are responsible for spreading TB, and so is wildlife. Something must be done for the sake of these animals.
At our local secondary school, there were 2 cases of TB last year, and yet strangely, we have now been told that children in this area are no longer going to be vaccinated as routine. What is happening?!
Beryl mentioned deer. In Foot and Mouth, it was stated that all cloven footed animals including deer could get the disease. Whilst animals were culled in this area, deer were running through the farm yards. No culling of wild deer ever took place, so did they never get it? did they get it and recover ( as most animals will) or is it still lurking out there? Not good to consider.
I think it needs a well run publicity campaign by the NFU or similar, along the lines of "How many more of us must die?" with a picture of a really cute looking dexter ( not brindle!!) to get the public to see that cows can be as cute as badgers, and that hundreds are being culled.
Finally, it is also an issue about the reliablity of the test, because I think we probably all know of someone who has had cattle culled only for the post mortem to be negative to the disease.
That is hard to bear.
Good luck to everyone.
Penny
Re Brindle dexters
I must be leeding a very sheltered life as I can honestly say I have never seen a black/ bindled dexter, I have seen a red dexter jersey cross which looked just like a zebra, but red and black very intresting, I have also seen this is a red pure bred bull, which was registred as he did not have these stripes as a calf and they developed as he got older,this was in the days when there was no inspection, I believe the lady put him in the freezer as my own and other peoples remarks where that sadly this was the best place for him.
it is not at all unusual to see black calves go through that stage where they are black and cream as they lose their baby coats.
Ann
I must be leeding a very sheltered life as I can honestly say I have never seen a black/ bindled dexter, I have seen a red dexter jersey cross which looked just like a zebra, but red and black very intresting, I have also seen this is a red pure bred bull, which was registred as he did not have these stripes as a calf and they developed as he got older,this was in the days when there was no inspection, I believe the lady put him in the freezer as my own and other peoples remarks where that sadly this was the best place for him.
it is not at all unusual to see black calves go through that stage where they are black and cream as they lose their baby coats.
Ann
When I was at the Frome sale, I said to anyone who would listen that farmers. NFU AND wildlife folk needed to get together to lobby the government. Neither farmers nor badger lovers (and one can be both!) will get anywhere if the two groups fight each other. Something has to be done and quickly - Duncan is obviously right, we should not be in this position and MAFF made the wrong decisions years ago (or the politicians) so the resurgence of TB had free rein.
I feel greatly for all living with this sword of Damacles and we must do all in our power to limit the spread.
I told a Scottish ministry vet that I believed deer to be the animal which would/could spread TB here not badgers ... he agreed that deer could spread it but he was also worried about badgers as they do travel about. When he became a ministry vet he was told a vaccine would be available in 10 years .... the position is just the same now, 10 years so no work has been done at all. Farmers, vets, NFU - all should be working together to decide on a plan of action - proaction not reaction - if the different groups put a (fairly) united front the politicians would have to listen.
It is far worse than FMD as FMD runs for a dreadful time but eventually dies away, TB will increase inexorably unless something is done quickly. A nightmare for all cattle breeders.
As usual, commercial farmers are burying their heads in the sand - they still move animals, buying in without checking, well, for once I agree with the tighter controls which may limit the dealers' activities.
Has anyone any idea what we can all do?
Jo
I feel greatly for all living with this sword of Damacles and we must do all in our power to limit the spread.
I told a Scottish ministry vet that I believed deer to be the animal which would/could spread TB here not badgers ... he agreed that deer could spread it but he was also worried about badgers as they do travel about. When he became a ministry vet he was told a vaccine would be available in 10 years .... the position is just the same now, 10 years so no work has been done at all. Farmers, vets, NFU - all should be working together to decide on a plan of action - proaction not reaction - if the different groups put a (fairly) united front the politicians would have to listen.
It is far worse than FMD as FMD runs for a dreadful time but eventually dies away, TB will increase inexorably unless something is done quickly. A nightmare for all cattle breeders.
As usual, commercial farmers are burying their heads in the sand - they still move animals, buying in without checking, well, for once I agree with the tighter controls which may limit the dealers' activities.
Has anyone any idea what we can all do?
Jo
Just to up-date, my little bull passed his test, I now wait for my herd test next month! Thank you for your constructive contributions. Yes, Penny, I do have deer running over this farm, and during the worst of the Foot and Mouth, the Dexters were, for this reason, and much to their chagrin, ‘confined to barracks’, but that is hardly an option against T.B., and deer are quite often diagnosed with it.
I have just been corresponding with an American breeder, and explaining our Governments measures, she was horrified, and decided she would not want to be farming over here.
Since many animals that are slaughtered, come back negative, one wonders how many in the herd that test clear, are in fact acting as an infection for further positives. How far are all the expensive tests actually doing their job. Thanks to government policy, there is a shortage of vets, and the test depends largely on their interpretation.
Before you rush to your own defence Duncan, I am quite sure you are thoroughly capable, but I have been astonished at the ignorance of some young vets. that I have come up against, in spheres where I do have an understanding. Veterinary practice requires a long apprenticeship, long after college is left behind, especially where they do not have a farming background. At one time recruits came mainly from farmer’s and vet’s sons, and they grew up with it, and absorbed a lot from childhjood.
I have just been corresponding with an American breeder, and explaining our Governments measures, she was horrified, and decided she would not want to be farming over here.
Since many animals that are slaughtered, come back negative, one wonders how many in the herd that test clear, are in fact acting as an infection for further positives. How far are all the expensive tests actually doing their job. Thanks to government policy, there is a shortage of vets, and the test depends largely on their interpretation.
Before you rush to your own defence Duncan, I am quite sure you are thoroughly capable, but I have been astonished at the ignorance of some young vets. that I have come up against, in spheres where I do have an understanding. Veterinary practice requires a long apprenticeship, long after college is left behind, especially where they do not have a farming background. At one time recruits came mainly from farmer’s and vet’s sons, and they grew up with it, and absorbed a lot from childhjood.
In New Zealand, all farmed deer have to be tested for TB every four years as are cows. More frequently, if the herd has had a possitive test. Ferrits are also a possible carrier. They and opossums are treated as pests and are trapped/poisoned as much as the land owner can afford to.
By using strict regulations on the movement of cattle and deer in infected areas of the country and erradication, we have reduced the number of cases of TB in NZ. It has taken the combined efforts of various government agencies and the country's Farmers. It has cost the country a lot of money, but farming is NZ's No.1 industry. We couldn't afford NOT to tackle TB.
I really feel for you trying to farm under such a difficult system. I'm glad your little bull passed his test.
By using strict regulations on the movement of cattle and deer in infected areas of the country and erradication, we have reduced the number of cases of TB in NZ. It has taken the combined efforts of various government agencies and the country's Farmers. It has cost the country a lot of money, but farming is NZ's No.1 industry. We couldn't afford NOT to tackle TB.
I really feel for you trying to farm under such a difficult system. I'm glad your little bull passed his test.
Inger
NZ
NZ
-
Julie Harvey
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:44 pm
I didn't see the photos but even in early days Dexters had white on udders and the regulation allows white behind the naval and/or on bottom of tail anywhere else is, I believe, not permitted. It sounds as if the animal in question isn't a true Dexter but the problems of TB need to be addressed for all cattle's sake. Jo
-
Julie Harvey
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:44 pm
The Breed standard for bulls allows "a small amount on the organs of generation and in the tassel of the tail" this bull calf looked like he had been to B & Q and bought a roller and had gone up through its belly with it!! TB is a big problem i agree, but this sort of thing is going on all the time and needs to be addressed.
On the suject of TB, on the local westcountry news last week, it was mentioned that if the Government was to go ahead with a Badger Cull, DEFRA would not be able to carry out the cull do to the finacial implications and it would be left to the Farmer or their agents to carry out the cull, this could lead to all sorts of problems with different organisations who are against the cull.
It is rather late in the evening so my mind may be wandering but ... could farmers, through an agency like NFU sue DEFRA for its inefficiencies re TB control? We are regulated tightly 'to protect people and animals' but MAFF/DEFRA allowed TB to regain its hold owing to total stupidity. ... just a pie in the sky wish I suppose.
Jo
Jo
I love the idea of sueing Defra, Jo, even if it is only a dream.
To get back to colour, a Dexter with white on the UNDERLINE is probably carrying pure Dexter genes. If it is on the flank, it is probably due to outside breeding. If you are going to take him out of the Herd book, you should logically remove his parents, since he had to inherit it from both. To show up in him, they must both be carrying it in the recessive form. If this removal policy were followed to its logical conclusion, there would be very few animals left in the Herd Book.
I suggest a useful exercise, is for readers to carefully go though the pedigrees of all their animals, and see how many can go back ten generations with NO appendix or foreign genes. Please, please, let Andrew Sheppy know if you have anything to fill this bill, he has been searching for months
. To remove animals on their looks, without working out as to where it came from, does nothing to add the purity of the animals in the Herd Book. Unless due thought is given to inheritance, it is pointless. Many animals were removed in the past, penalised for too much white, yet some of those animals were actually pure-bred Dexters, and they are few and far between today.
To get back to colour, a Dexter with white on the UNDERLINE is probably carrying pure Dexter genes. If it is on the flank, it is probably due to outside breeding. If you are going to take him out of the Herd book, you should logically remove his parents, since he had to inherit it from both. To show up in him, they must both be carrying it in the recessive form. If this removal policy were followed to its logical conclusion, there would be very few animals left in the Herd Book.
I suggest a useful exercise, is for readers to carefully go though the pedigrees of all their animals, and see how many can go back ten generations with NO appendix or foreign genes. Please, please, let Andrew Sheppy know if you have anything to fill this bill, he has been searching for months
. To remove animals on their looks, without working out as to where it came from, does nothing to add the purity of the animals in the Herd Book. Unless due thought is given to inheritance, it is pointless. Many animals were removed in the past, penalised for too much white, yet some of those animals were actually pure-bred Dexters, and they are few and far between today.