Dead cows - Mysterious deaths please help?

val · Post by **val** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:52 pm

Dear all
I am new on here and have had Dexters since March.
I have 20 years experience of livestock and keep sheep and pigs too I have also raised calves and been involved with milking cows.
However I have had 2 of my 6 cows die in the past 4 weeks and need some help as both us and vet are at wits end!

First up was a 12 year old cow 3 months in calf who one day didn't appear for her handful of nuts, she was found standing alone nearby and was on first examination constipated and the rumen etc had stopped. Vet was called and could find nothing wrong except for this and advised vetrumex and castor oil as a drench and plenty of water to drink (they have a stream in the field so water not a problem) plus gave painkillers and vitamins as a boost. Well first drench at 11am ok, went back at 3pm to repeat when she drank some water, appeared a little brighter and we repeated the drench. Within the hour she had gone down and died.
We had a post mortem as the vet suspected a wire but nothing was found and it was put down to one of those things.

However imagine my horror when 3 weeks later I found 3 year old cow 4 weeks off calving a little slow to come for her food! She was eating and drinking but not with her usual gusto. Vet was called and went over her with a fine tooth combe but found everything normal except for a slight rattle in her throat which he said sounded like a sore throat. He gave antibiotic as a precaution and some anti inflamamatories. we penned her up and 24 hours later she was looking brighter was eating and drinking well and licking the other cows faces. Phew we thought. I phoned the vet and he reccommended letting her out to graze with the others. So back I went 3 hours from seeing her before and she was gone! Hurdles( tall sheep hurdles that we use for the gate of our catching pen) were open and she was nowhere to be seen. I explored the fields and there she was stone cold dead on the bank of the stream.

Now I have moved the others to another field nearby, just incase. I will add there is no ragwort, water dropwort or any thing else of that sort in the fields . Where they grazed was 14 acres of woodland pasture, scrub and grassland that had not had any stock for over 4 years naturally watered and very sheltered. We wormed them in July with Dectomax and use Spot on as there are a lot of ticks. We feed a few handfuls of nuts and a bit of hay so they come to us ( you need to do this when they are in such a big area!) and the nuts are low protein grneral stock nuts and the hay is our own.

Having surfed the net I think it could possibly be fluke and the others have been treated with fluke and worm drench.
Can any body shed any light on this? Even our local cattle keeping friends are mystified but when you lose 2 out of 6 cows and they are the best 2 you begin to doubt your stock keeping skills ( Our animals rarely if ever are ill as we pride ourselves on good stock management)

Val

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:28 pm

What a dreadful time, it is horrible when disasters strike in a small herd. One conclusion I have come to over the years is that because of the small numbers in a herd any sort of misfortune has a very disproportionate effect, there is no half way house between success and disaster. But try not to be too downhearted and certainly do not feel that you are to blame.

It is not certain that the two deaths are connected, but nevertheless quite possible that they are. As a vet myself I would not wish to insult your vet with lots of suggestions which I am sure he/she has considered already. With the first one there possibly would not seem much need for a post mortem, and that is difficult these days with OTMS regulations etc.. Ask your vet if you should consider blood tests on any of the others, eg for liver function which might be affected by fluke or poisonous plants. Any acorns? Is there any history of redwater in your area? By that I mean Babesiosis, a protozoal blood parasite spread by ticks. They might be more pleniful in rough ground not grazed down for years if there have been sheep or deer present. Although the classic signs of redwater are easy to spot I think it is not always so easy. Do you know the history of the cows prior to purchase, or of the herds where they came from? Blackleg, a clostridial disease, is also seem more in recent years than it was in the past, again the classic signs theoretically easy to spot but not always so. Livers damaged by fluke are also subject to Clostridial infection sometimes.

Do you know why the ground had not had stock for years- had there been problems before?

What part of the world are you in?

These are just a few quick thoughts, I am sure others will add more. Again, always remember that they may be totally unconnected. I do hope things go better for you,

Best wishes

Duncan

val · Post by **val** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:37 pm

Thanks Duncan!

Right!
We are in Somerset on the Blackdown Hills, The reason the land has not been grazed is due to the owner having it for recreational purposes!! ( he lives in towns and itsa used for walking his dogs and potting a few clay pigeons from time to time!) I had not considered redwater as I have only vaguely heard of it and don't know anyone who has ever experienced it but will certainly not rule it out.
I will let the board know if I find anything out......we don't think its acorns as there are not loads of oaks.

Val

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:04 pm

Thanks for more info, Val. Don't rule out acorns if there are any large oaks at all - acorn crops can be very variable and some years one tree can have huge huge numbers. Your vet may have a view on whether the signs add up.
Interesting you mention clay pigeons - I seem to recall the older sorts could be poisonous due to pitch I think, not sure what they are made of now. I think the old types were risky for pigs.

Duncan

B.Netti78070 · Post by **B.Netti78070** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:48 am

I may be way off target here, but are the clay pigeons you are talking about the ones you use for trap and skeet shooting? If so it could lead poisoning. Here in Texas, USA, cattle in areas where hunters frequent do die from lead poisoning from the shells of guns fired by hunters.

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:21 am

I did think about lead but discounted it as the signs seem very unlike lead poisoning. I should think it would take a lot of shooting to polute the ground sufficiently, might hapen where a site was used say by a gun club but not so likely if it is just being used by the owner occasionally.

Duncan

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:34 am

Were the cows in good condition? It sounds as if they were as you were feeding them regularly.

I had a cow once ( a friesian though) which was in excellent condition though not obviously very over weight and she died from too much fat around her liver. She did show very similar symptoms to yours. However I would imagine that your vet would recognise this and the likelyhood of two would be unheard of.

Stephanie

jeffyorks · Post by **jeffyorks** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:25 pm

As Ducan says above, the effect of such incidents on a small herd are severe & inevitably make one start looking for a common cause, we had a similar situation when I was young.

We milked about 30 at the time & 4 died, for no particular reason, within 4 months of each other, quite a devastating thing for a small dairyman.

The vet could find nothing, we couldnt either & It never occurred again.

Hopefully your's is just coincidence & nothing insidious is lurking out there.

Chin up !

Jeff

moomin · Post by **moomin** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:40 pm

A long time ago, about 20 years, the Jubilante herd lost three cows this time of the year - the reason was acorn poisoning. They just died, when they were opened up their rumens were stuffed with acorns. I think you might have the same problem.

jen · Post by **jen** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:47 pm

Blackleg killed a cow I sold to the north of scotland and also another cross bred in the same herd. Control is by vaccination, quite cheap apparently. The vet said localised ourbreaks in the same fields so local Knowledge being necessary. Death within 24 hours, cow was 7+, no previous illness.

timz · Post by **timz** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:08 pm

timz · Post by **timz** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:17 pm

Having heard your sad story and read the replies ,i am now getting worried about my dexters .over the past three months i have lost 2 of my cows to T.B. . I haave been allowed to bring on 2 relacements as it only left me with my last cows 4 month old calf.
Now seeing tour story i'm getting worried as i have about 10 oak trees alongside one of my fields.Is their anything i could do to stop the problem of acorn poisoning apart from closing this my main grazing area? (I've never heared of it before)
Tim Z

val · Post by **val** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:31 pm

Thanks all

We have checked and eliminated acorns as a cause as not many there and cow who had PM didn't show any signs.
The heifers that are left have been moved and to be honest look better!( not that they looked bad before!) We are at the moment investigating if blackleg or redwater are a problem at that particular field but the vet is sure its not redwater so still mystified!
We do have some thoughts that it may be deliberate poisoning by person unknown as both the cows that died were friendly to humans and some other strange things have happened there.....the field gate is on the public road....but we don't want to consider that as a possibility if we don't have to.......
Whilst I'm musing to myself does anyone have a cure for large warts? We have a Dexter cross heifer with some horrible ones

Val

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:05 pm

If time is not a problem that will cure them. If time is a problem think of getting your vet to send a piece away to get an autogenous vaccine made, will not be instant but will speed the removal. It is made for an individual so no use for treating or preventing in others. I use a lab simply called Vetlab in Horsham for mine, your vet may know others who will make it.
Presumably a cross cow will not be going to show or pedigree sales so maybe not of immediate importance except that it may spread to others but that may already have happened.

Incidentally I had a small herd of highland cows loose one at the weekend, looks like clostridial infection in liver, others vaccinated already.

Duncan

Farrant · Post by **Farrant** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:14 pm

Back to the acorn concern.
I am no expert but as far as I know acorn poisoning is rare and completely unpredictable. Our dexters have access to oak trees (lots!) but I don't personally believe it is necessary to fence the trees off; cows are unlikely to eat acorns if they have plenty of grazing (however there are bound to be exceptions to this). Acorn crops vary considerably from year to year, also high winds etc can increase risks as more acorns fall to the ground. Large quantities (of leaves and/or acorns)have to be ingested for the toxin to be lethal (renal necrosis).
As for post-mortem - rumen is usually packed full of oak leaves and/or acorns so it can be accepted as the cause of death.

Currently I am studying veterinary medicine at Edinburgh - I will ask the pathologists for more info on acorn poisoning.

Caroline