No Dexters have 100% Complete Pedigrees back to Dublin

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

I don't think there are any living Dexters today that can trace fully back to Dublin Herdbook #1 with no gaps ..... Am I wrong?

Can anyone name any living Dexters with 100% complete pedigrees?

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

So, it seems that the pedigree purists who talk about "Original Population Dexters" or "Legacy Dexters" all have holes in their pedigrees just like ALL of today's Dexters do.

There are other breeds in the world where individual animals can be 100% traced back to the original foundation animals in their "Herdbook #1"... But that's NOT Dexters.

What makes an animal "purebred" is a good number of generations of selection against a breed standard, weeding out traits that don't fit the breed standard, and selecting for traits that do meet the breed standard. "Purebred" means an animal breeds true for all its breed-defining traits.

If someone wants to claim their Dexters are close to the originals, then they need to closely follow the original Dexter Breed Standard published in 1900. It says ALL Dexters should be short and deep and thick and have shorter legs and weigh no more than 900 pounds when in breeding condition. It does NOT allow for longer legs, nor any animals over 900 pounds. 100% of calves born should fit that description, and if they don't, then more work is necessary to create PUREBRED "original" Dexters.

Concerning horns, the breed originators never prohibited the removal of horns (nor removal of testicles) in their standard, so it seems they left that decision to individual breeders.

[Louisa Gidney]

Kirk - I can't imagine any stock person c.1900 envisaging the removal of horns from cattle. For example, the Ayrshire breeders took great pride in their cows' horns, with special horn trainers to ensure an even pair. The Great Dehorning was an event in the 1960's here.

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

By the 1880's, dehorning was becoming very well known and widely used. It increased in use as modern industrial farming practices caught on and as modern transportation gained traction. Loading a bunch of horned cattle into a rail car, resulted in much bruising and helped drive the need for hornless cattle.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Jv3BHjAr0A

The fairly wealthy people who established the Dexter breed in the 1890's were well educated and informed and would have known well about dehorning, but since they mostly wanted their Dexters as estate ornaments, most would have preferred horns.

They easily could have made a statement in the standards that Dexters must not be dehorned, but they never did.

[Louisa Gidney]

Kirk, I think we are at cross purposes. I'm referring to dairy cattle in Britain, since the early C20th Dexter herds were mostly milked. When I started keeping cattle, locally even commercial stock were still wintered in byres individually tied up with neck chains. Dehorned cattle could slip these off, horned ones couldn't.
I have yet to see any British evidence for routine dehorning of cattle prior to the 1960's. Perhaps our breed archivist could contribute information on any earlier uptake of dehorning.

[Saffy]

I know that in the 50s there was an abreast parlour on our farm. It was upgraded in the very early 60s and no neck chains were required any longer, except in the AI pen, we could usually keep them in the stall for the AI to visit by tying the neck chain quite tight and also the chain behind the back legs quite tight as well. A gate system was fitted in the milking parlour, the gate could be opened in front of each cow after she was milked using a long metal rod and handle from above to behind the cow to open the gate, she would then walk down an alley in front of the other cows and out into the yard. This was when our dairy cows were de horned for the first time.

(Then in 1965/66 a 5/10 herringbone parlour replaced the abreast parlour, our cows were milked outside in a metal bale for several months whilst it went in. A very damp, cold experience for all involved.)

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

I'm not saying that Dexters were dehorned in the early days in Ireland, I'm simply stating that the breed originators who wrote the first breed standard published in 1900 almost certainly knew of the practice of dehorning cattle and if they felt that horns were the most important part of Dexters, they could have said something like "The horns of Dexters are their most important feature and must never be removed", but instead they said very little about the horns and left dehorning up to the individual breeders.

Here's an 1880's discussion about the practice of dehorning dairy cattle:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kexJA ... ry&f=false

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

I have to add that if someone wants to claim they have "original" Dexters, it would have to mean that they have a line of Dexters where nearly every calf born would meet the 1900 Breed Standard, horns included, and specific horn-shape included, and 100% of adults under 900 pounds, and 100% with shorter legs, and red or black only.

Do any of the so-called "Originalists" or "Purists" exactly follow every word of the 1900 Breed Standard?

Here's that original 1900 standard:

1. The Dexter is essentially both a milk-producing and a beef making breed, and both these points should, in judging, be taken Into consideration.

2. Colour.--Bulls.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). A little white on organs of generation not to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description.

Cows.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). Black with white on the udder, or red with white on bag. The extension of the white of the udder slightly along the inside of flank or under side of the belly, or a little white on end of tail, shall not be held to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description. .

3. Head AND Neck.--Head short and broad, with great width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression.

Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders, which, when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness through the heart, the breast coming well forward.

Horns.-These should be short and moderately thick, springing well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve.

4. Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible. Tail well set on and level 'with back.

5. Skin.--The skin should be soft and mellow, and handle well, not too thin, hair fine, plentiful and silky.

6. Dexter Bulls should not exceed 900 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.

Dexter Cows should not exceed 800 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.

[JamsHundred]

Poppycock.

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

Judy (Jamshundred),

Thanks for confirming the fact that no Dexters have 100% complete pedigrees back to Dublin Herdbook #1 and confirming the fact that none of today's so-called "purists" and "original population" crowd entirely follow the original breed standard of 1900.

[Louisa Gidney]

Kirk, you appear to have answered your own question about dehorning, since a detailed description of horn typology is given in this breed standard and there is no mention of the possibility of dehorning.

[Louisa Gidney]

The Scale of Points for Showing
(from the 1918 Herdbook with the same Breed Standard as Kirk's example)

Bulls
General formation and character 25 points
Head, horns (sic!) and hair 25 points
Quality and touch 20 points
Colour 30 points

Cows
Head, neck and horns (sic) 15 points
Body, top line, under line, ribs, setting on of tail, shortness of leg (sic) & etc 25 points
Bag 40 points
Quality and touch 10 points
Colour 10 points

Show cattle were definitely horned and cows, but not bulls, explicitly short-legged.

[JamsHundred]

Kirk,
Since we have been engaged in this debate for years. . . your comment is just more of your deceit.
You know very well there are Dexters whose pedigrees show full blood status to foundation. Those pedigrees exist in published herdbooks. Eventually, they will exist ONLINE in the Legacy historical database as the herdbooks are added.

Judy

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

The 1918 scale of points guide for judges was just a way to standardize the allotment of points in certain categories, but clearly wasn't meant to be any form of "standard". It says "colour" but doesn't say anything about which colours were ok or not ok.

The 1918 scale of points for judging says nothing specifically about size, but it does have a category of "general formation and character" and one would need to refer to the standard, where it says ALL Dexters must weigh 900 pounds or less and be thick and beefy and ALL Dexters must have shorter legs.

Again, are any of the folks who claim to be "purists" or "originalists" following EVERY word of the original breed standard of 1900? I think it would be awesome if someone was actually doing that. (I'm attempting to follow it (except for horns), but I still have much work to do.


PS. It's interesting to note that the 1918 judging scale only gave 15 points out of 100 total points, to head, neck, and horns for cows... So that could be 5 points for head, 5 points for neck, and 5 points for horns. So a cow could get 95 points with no horns at all. That certainly tells us that horns weren't very important to them.

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

Judy (Jamshundred),

If there were any living Dexters today, that completely trace back 100% to herdbook #1 in Dublin, you or others would be able to provide us with the name of an animal. But apparently, none exist.

The "purity" crowd have misused the word "foundation" to plug the holes their own pedigrees, while discrediting other Dexters that also have holes in their pedigrees. ALL living Dexters today have pedigree holes that could be plugged with the word "foundation" if we all twist that word enough. But the only indisputable definition of "foundation" would be the animals listed in Dublin Herdbook #1.

Until you or others can give us the name of at least one living Dexter today, with 100% complete lineage back to Dublin Herdbook #1, we must assume that none exist. I'm not talking about whether the data is online or not, just give us the name of one that you believe exists, or stop making your (apparently false) claim that they exist.