The bar gets higher

[Rob R]

Linear is the most professional and respected action to happen to the dexter breed, we now have the respect in more areas than we ever have, other breeds are following our breakthrough example, please try and understand by proper education and you will see the light!!

But no commercial credibility whatsoever.

It is implied that linear gives commercially desirable results such as more calves over a lifetime and there is some evidence to suggest this but in order to quantify the difference then it's important that you can distinguish between cows that look good in their 18th year because they are well put together and those which are still productive but have worked harder and don't fare so well. As far as I can see the way the animal is assessed can be influenced by how productive the cow has been. If people are encouraged to see EX as a goal in itself then it might, just might be influence the breed in the same way that showing does - ie make the breed less producive overall.

That is not a criticism of linear assessment, it is an observation about the way it is being presented to members. It's just like our wonderful Dexter beef, simply being a good product in itself is not sufficient reason for people to buy it.The benefits of it need to fulfil a need in the consumers/members, and they need to know about it. Saying that you should buy it because it is good is not enough - people need to know that it is sufficiently better in a tangible, measurable way for them to go out of their way to buy it/have it done.

Perhaps I'm not conveying this is a coherent way but basically the glorification of the high scores might just be the thing that is putting members off linear assessment, rather than encouraging them to do it?

[Louisa Gidney]

I've done a graph but don't know how to upload it. So, here's just a rough breakdown.
Cows N = 257
EX N = 17, 6%
VG N = 82, 32%
GP N = 92, 36%
G N = 54, 21%
F N= 8, 3%

Bulls N = 52
EX N = 29, 56%
VG N = 16, 31%
GP N = 7, 13%

I would also point out that back in the 1980's card grading, a similar concept to linear scoring, was introduced for rare breed primitive sheep. This had the effect of several breeds becoming top heavy in the elite range, to the extent this impacted on overall breed parameters with only "red cards" seen as desirable, deemed suitable for showing & getting bids in the sale ring. An attempt was made to mitigate this by amalgamating red and blue cards into "Purple" , then a list of criteria ticked as good, acceptable and poor and finally, at the York sale with over 100 Hebrideans regularly forward, abandoned.
I can see Linear following a similar trajectory, particularly once other large herds promoting the project also finally hang up their wellies.

[Saffy]

Many other breeds are now using linear, I can't remember all of them but when mine were last inspected the assessor was rushing off to Gloucester to inspect 2 herds of Gloucester cattle. Other breeds and breed societies seem to be very much of the opinion that this is the way forward. The DCS is not on its own here.....blindly sticking its neck out....

It is always easy to criticise policies or ideas so can I ask what people would suggest as good new way to take our breed forward, something to improve dexters in some innovative way that you consider to be the right way - "make a difference" over time and perhaps even bring in more dexter owners to the fold?

Stephanie

[Saffy]

Rob -

I haven't implied that linear will give more calves BUT that if a cow has all the right conformation and gets the right husbandry...the likelihood is that her longevity will be MUCH greater than one with poor legs and feet, poor back or udder. Stands to reason. However you will still require a bull, or the AI man!!!

Also a cow that has had a calf every year i.e is 16 years old and had 14 calves will get more points than one that looks identical - that is also 16 years and has had 6 calves. How hard she has worked is taken into account.

Stephanie

[Rob R]

Rob -

I haven't implied that linear will give more calves BUT that if a cow has all the right conformation and gets the right husbandry...the likelihood is that her longevity will be MUCH greater than one with poor legs and feet, poor back or udder. Stands to reason. However you will still require a bull, or the AI man!!!

Also a cow that has had a calf every year i.e is 16 years old and had 14 calves will get more points than one that looks identical - that is also 16 years and has had 6 calves. How hard she has worked is taken into account.

Stephanie

Sorry, I must have missed that in the literature. There must surely be an opportunity for people not to tell the truth? Calving may be easy to verify but management such as feeding or foot trimming, for example, are less verifiable.

[Saffy]

Its going to be impossible to tell if a cow had her feet trimmed several months back and feeding is different everywhere but the assessor told me if trimming is done too close to a grading he is easily able to tell.

To be honest Rob...I can't remember what is in the literature, I only know what happens in linear assessments from the year dot. Although I have read it in the past. I doubt they have written every word that the assessor goes by as it would surely be too much info to put in the post!!!. These people are trained to a very high standard, I expect owners just get the basics, we aren't doing their training after all....so we won't be getting their training manual.

I just know that a cow that has had more calves is looked upon more favourably from talking to assessors and asking questions. Which anyone can do if they come to a grading, or I would expect they could email to ask.

In the past I have invited anyone interested to come and see my cattle assessed and am happy to do that again next time if there is anyone interested.

Stephanie

P.S. A cow will have feet pretty much according to the shape of the legs above them, so the assessor will have a fair idea if lots of beautifying has been done before his arrival.....OK she could have other foot faults but many are affected by the shape of the legs over time....

[Candy]

As a newbie to Dexter ownership and only knowing 'what I like' I had all eligible females in my herd assessed. I accepted all the scores whether they may be construed as detrimental or not and allowed them to be published. I personally didn't see it as a competition but something that I could hopefully use in the future and also to see how my choices had panned out. I would hope that judges would not be perusing the linear scores to pick their winners in the show ring (who has that sort of time on their hands?) but it will be useful personally to see the difference in what judges look for and if it is similar to linear assessment. I love the fact that the way an animal walks is taken in to account with linear but at the same time had a cow that scored excellent in all aspects except her udder which had drooped this year and so didn't get excellent because of this which was disappointing. If you only allow the best scores to be published then you are using it as a competition not a useful tool.

[Mark Bowles]

Candy, nice to hear your feedback on linear. Your cow that would have gone excellent(but for a poor udder due to age I assume) would have scored well earlier in her life. I score my heifers as first calvers just to get a score on the board so to speak, then score them again, in a couple of years, again when they have the full points available (5th calvers and onwards) and again when they are around 10 years old as longevity and production score very well. From this you can see that for a cow to score well from birth it would maybe take 10/12 years or even longer, an 18 year old cow has been the oldest to be scored, its a long term project. To get extended generations of cows of your own prefix with good scores would be a lifetime achievement not many could attain.

[Jac]

Mark said ...... I score my heifers as first calvers just to get a score on the board so to speak,

Great with the benefit of experience to know whether an animal is of sufficient merit to put in calf to score. What is in place for those with little/no knowledge adding to the surplus of unwanted in calf stock on the market?

[Mark Bowles]

Absolutely nothing.
If advice is needed then there are 4 members of the linear committee to ask. Breeders have to take responsibility themselves surely when they determine if they are to buy dexters or get them in calf, the society cant control that....can they???

[Jac]

Absolutely nothing.
If advice is needed then there are 4 members of the linear committee to ask. Breeders have to take responsibility themselves surely when they determine if they are to buy dexters or get them in calf, the society cant control that....can they???

No, the Society cannot control what people do. However, there is no help for the novice as things stand - the field advisors have now gone and there is no mentoring service.

[Candy]

Mark, thanks for your comments re my older cow that was assessed, I had taken your comments on board when you posted similar after I'd had my assessment in September. I was just replying to comments on here that were saying it was being used as a competition. Maybe by some but not by myself which is why I posted that I'd had ALL my eligible cows assessed and the results published whether they would be construed as detrimental or not.

[Rob R]

Its going to be impossible to tell if a cow had her feet trimmed several months back and feeding is different everywhere but the assessor told me if trimming is done too close to a grading he is easily able to tell.

I noticed in the latest bulletin that the advice is "it would be best to get them [feet] trimmed".

Feeding and feet trimming policy is different everywhere, and that's why I think that linear assessment is purely a breeding tool for the individual who knows their own management and wants to use it as such. There is little value in comparing factors across herds as the degrees of manipulation will be different and can't be taken into account.

[Saffy]

Considering that most who show their cattle also trim feet for the shows - if the cattle are trimmed for the assessor I don't see it as a great sin, especially as sadly many people bring the trimmer in once a year anyway as it is needed..... Trimming will not make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

I had 2 cows assessed a couple of months ago. they were the ONLY 2 eligible and unfortunately both were very stale by the time they were done, an 8 year old cow went up to VG and an 18 year old cow went up to EX, if I can get the old lady in calf...again, I shall try her at 19 when not stale as she was marked down for a very empty udder...you never know she might get more points and at 18 I think she is the oldest... so am I being too competitive if I suggest that I may have the oldest to be scored? ; ) Well I don't think so - I hope it demonstrates just how versatile and long lived whilst still fertile the Dexter can be and also obviously healthy, fit and in good condition and conformation...and bye the way - I didn't have her feet trimmed!!!!

Stephanie

[Rob R]

It's not a sin, it's an anomally. Only useful as a comparison if armed with the history.