Dexter Beef Breakdown

[Rob R]

Returning to the subject of the Dexter Beef Breakdown and looking at the differences in weights obtained for non-short animals do they all fall within the height guidelines according to the current breed standard? The non-short male of mine (about 24 months) was not (offspring of short to non-short). The heifer (about 27 months?) looked as if it would finish within the standard (offspring of non-short to non-short).

Well now - where do you want to draw this line? (sorry) - we have taken store animals off 2 separate breeders plus our own calves - all are finishing at over 200kg under 30 months off grass. All are registed / birth notified - stricter than other accreditation schemes.

As an aside we have also delivered OTM steers for others and they made our boys look like runts.

Am I now to phone customers to tell them that we cannot sell them Dexter Beef because it is a quarter of an inch too tall??

Sorry but lets leave that one at the showring

No, let's not - you draw a line at a breed standard otherwise there is no point having a breed at all. You draw the line at the clearly defined line - like a speed limit it is a maximum, not a target. You get away with it, many people do, but it should always be a mistake that you correct as soon as you spot it. If you have animals exceeding the breed standard then you need to correct the fault in future breeding. Steers are a little different as they grow taller due to the effect of castration but heifers and bulls should be within it or not registered to continue breeding the fault in future offspring.

[Boofarm]

No, let's not - you draw a line at a breed standard otherwise there is no point having a breed at all. You draw the line at the clearly defined line - like a speed limit it is a maximum, not a target. You get away with it, many people do, but it should always be a mistake that you correct as soon as you spot it. If you have animals exceeding the breed standard then you need to correct the fault in future breeding. Steers are a little different as they grow taller due to the effect of castration but heifers and bulls should be within it or not registered to continue breeding the fault in future offspring.

Apart from at the showring how do we monitor and enforce this? Calves are registed at less than a month old - they achieve breeding potential at about a year old and are typically bred well before they reach thier final height

So at exactly what point (in terms of animal age) does the breed standard monitor visit and when do we de-register overheight animals and all their existing progeny? Are all registrations to be provisional until the animal is finally confirmed as being to standard?

If I put a registed Dexter cow to a registered Dexter Bull I get a 100% dexter calf - and I am entitled to describe and sell it as exactly that in my view.

Whether I am allowed to take it into a show class or a society sale is another matter. There is a big difference between having a breed and a Breed Standard

[Jac]

I think this 'beef thing' has got completely out of hand. Instead of a means of breed improvement (whilst providing an additional source of income to keep your herd going) it has become something quite different. The linear scoring scheme is not helping in this respect as it is too late once the animal has been bred to be beefed. I wouldn't want compulsory inspection but I think take up (and the breed) would be a lot better if we were not so ambitious and simply gave pre-breeding animals a pass or a fail as stage 1 before moving onto the full assessment at a later date. This would I feel encourage more people to beef inferior females instead of putting them in calf.

With my butcher's hat on I can see the sense in larger animals however we do have a breed standard and if one is trying to produce registered stock then the aim should be to breed them to the standard even if one is not intent on showing them. That is not to say that the stock that is bred should serve no useful purpose. Surveys have been conducted - almost everyone is 'interested in beef' - if one is not a vegetarian that is understandable but I think the breed is heading into the dangerous waters. What has happened to dual-purpose? Yes, I am aware that udders account for 40% of the linear scoring mark but how popular is the current scheme when taking into account the number of animals registered?

[Rob R]

No, let's not - you draw a line at a breed standard otherwise there is no point having a breed at all. You draw the line at the clearly defined line - like a speed limit it is a maximum, not a target. You get away with it, many people do, but it should always be a mistake that you correct as soon as you spot it. If you have animals exceeding the breed standard then you need to correct the fault in future breeding. Steers are a little different as they grow taller due to the effect of castration but heifers and bulls should be within it or not registered to continue breeding the fault in future offspring.

Apart from at the showring how do we monitor and enforce this? Calves are registed at less than a month old - they achieve breeding potential at about a year old and are typically bred well before they reach thier final height

So at exactly what point (in terms of animal age) does the breed standard monitor visit and when do we de-register overheight animals and all their existing progeny? Are all registrations to be provisional until the animal is finally confirmed as being to standard?

If I put a registed Dexter cow to a registered Dexter Bull I get a 100% dexter calf - and I am entitled to describe and sell it as exactly that in my view.

Whether I am allowed to take it into a show class or a society sale is another matter. There is a big difference between having a breed and a Breed Standard

It's down to us, as breeders, to maintain the breed standard in our herds. You don't know how big animal will be at 1 month but you can beef or deregister an animal at any point in it's life. I accidentally registered a steer as a heifer, when I realised I changed it, don't know why the same shouldn't apply to height. The size is something that has been allowed to creep up in many breeds, gradually but eventually it changes the breed characteristics and value.

Like Jac I can see the value, from the butchers perspective, of bigger being more desirable but the butcher only measures meat yield, s/he's less bothered about what it cost to get there or how well it fits an ecological niche.

[Boofarm]

]It's down to us, as breeders, to maintain the breed standard in our herds. You don't know how big animal will be at 1 month but you can beef or deregister an animal at any point in it's life. I accidentally registered a steer as a heifer, when I realised I changed it, don't know why the same shouldn't apply to height. The size is something that has been allowed to creep up in many breeds, gradually but eventually it changes the breed characteristics and value

.

Or to put it another way it is not monitored outside the show ring, society sales or linear assements? Not looking to be contentious but there is a big difference between a typo and applying a strict height standard to growing animals.

I stand to be corrected but Breed Standard Compliance is not so far as I am aware, a condition of registration. I am not arguing that dexters should be bred bigger or the Breed Standard ignored - merely that we should not be worrying about hieghts on animals going to slaugher.

Like Jac I can see the value, from the butchers perspective, of bigger being more desirable but the butcher only measures meat yield, s/he's less bothered about what it cost to get there or how well it fits an ecological niche

.

That brings us back to whether they are pets or assets. The ecological niches that my cattle need to fill is firstly that I like them and secondly that they pay for their care, I currently run 20 cows and could not justify that as pets.

Again no issue with sticking with the Breed Standard where applicable - not concerned about it where it is not.

[Jac]

I stand to be corrected but Breed Standard Compliance is not so far as I am aware, a condition of registration. I am not arguing that dexters should be bred bigger or the Breed Standard ignored - merely that we should not be worrying about hieghts on animals going to slaugher.

You are perfectly correct breed standard compliance is not a condition of registration (with regard to height) since there is no way you can tell how large an animal is going to grow (management issues aside) when it is one month old. Leaving aside the short/non-short debate which complicates the whole height issue, it isn't the height of the animal going to slaughter, it is the overall height of the females in the herd when it is finally dispersed if they are going to passed on to someone else (assuming you are not going to cull the lot).

[Rob R]

]It's down to us, as breeders, to maintain the breed standard in our herds. You don't know how big animal will be at 1 month but you can beef or deregister an animal at any point in it's life. I accidentally registered a steer as a heifer, when I realised I changed it, don't know why the same shouldn't apply to height. The size is something that has been allowed to creep up in many breeds, gradually but eventually it changes the breed characteristics and value

.

Or to put it another way it is not monitored outside the show ring, society sales or linear assements? Not looking to be contentious but there is a big difference between a typo and applying a strict height standard to growing animals.

I stand to be corrected but Breed Standard Compliance is not so far as I am aware, a condition of registration. I am not arguing that dexters should be bred bigger or the Breed Standard ignored - merely that we should not be worrying about hieghts on animals going to slaugher.

But how can you not be concerned about the heights of animals going to slaughter? Often the only quirk of fate that dictates that an animal goes to slaughter instead of breeding is it's sex or a minor defect.

When we apply to register an animal we are asked that; "I confirm that the animal(s) are without visible defects and is to the Dexter Cattle Society Breed Standard."

Of course a calf that is to be beef is not necessarily going to be to breed standard, nor is it going to be within the height range of the breed standard at one month of age, but excessive height is one of those factors that we should be seeking to avoid and if your slaughter stock are the wrong side of the line, it's likely that the breeding stock will be pushing the boundaries also.

Whether a cow pays for itself is more of an economic niche. Maybe larger cattle need to be more towards the higher input, higher output end of the scale that must then yield more to pay for it's upkeep. My animals must be light and with a large footprint to deal with marshy ground without poaching the land, and thriving on a lower quality diet, which is why I have Dexters. They do this superbly well but at the other end of the scale I would imagine it's harder to justify keeping Dexters when other breeds can do higher yields so much easier.

[Jac]

I would imagine it's harder to justify keeping Dexters when other breeds can do higher yields so much easier.

But when you look at the set up costs of other breeds it doesn't stack up does it? Not taking the moral high ground on this one (or trying to be controversial) but if you are looking purely from a business point of view then if you have access to decent land and can finish a larger Dexter to higher more acceptable weights then worrying about the breed standard is probably not the first consideration and neither is selling on surplus females as breeding stock if demand for beef is not what you anticipate. Why not just do commercial crosses? The beef scheme doesn't permit it and when you are starting off you need all the help you can get - even a few posters and leaflets. Should the breed be preserved in aspic? Some don't like the polling in a horned breed with question marks about how it came about in some lines however, if the powers that be decided from a health and safety point of view there shouldn't be horned cattle and from a welfare point of view they didn't want disbudding/dehorning either then the breed would have to embrace polling. Will the breed cease to exist if it is not promoted as a commercial prospect? Can it succeed in a commercial market in its present form? This is just one of the issues that should not be decided behind closed doors. Someone here is going to point out that there needs to be a resolution to change the breed standard but if there are so few Dexters that comply then it will change by default.

[Boofarm]

........ it isn't the height of the animal going to slaughter, it is the overall height of the females in the herd when it is finally dispersed if they are going to passed on to someone else (assuming you are not going to cull the lot).

Fully agreed - not advocating ignoring or changing the breed standard. The only live animals we have sold to date are through society sales and that is the only place we would expect to see reasonable prices.

We are perhaps in a different position to many in that we have the option to outcross at any time.

Cheers
mac

[Boofarm]

But how can you not be concerned about the heights of animals going to slaughter? Often the only quirk of fate that dictates that an animal goes to slaughter instead of breeding is it's sex or a minor defect.

Because - as you fully realise that animal is being removed from the gene pool. My initial response was to address an implication that Dexters may be marginal as regards breed standard when achieving carcase weights of 200+ Kg. I accept that point and pointed out that we have sourced animals from other breeders which achieve similar size - so we are not looking at isolated cases.

Now - where do you want to take this - because if all animals are to stay within the breed standard then the mating which produced the overheight should not be repeated and perhaps one or more parents de-registered?

When we apply to register an animal we are asked that; "I confirm that the animal(s) are without visible defects and is to the Dexter Cattle Society Breed Standard."

No issue - and with tongue firmly in cheek I have yet to see a calf contravene the breed standard for height at a month old.

Of course a calf that is to be beef is not necessarily going to be to breed standard, nor is it going to be within the height range of the breed standard at one month of age, but excessive height is one of those factors that we should be seeking to avoid and if your slaughter stock are the wrong side of the line, it's likely that the breeding stock will be pushing the boundaries also

.

Agreed - hence my comments that the standard is not there to be ignored

Whether a cow pays for itself is more of an economic niche. Maybe larger cattle need to be more towards the higher input, higher output end of the scale that must then yield more to pay for it's upkeep. My animals must be light and with a large footprint to deal with marshy ground without poaching the land, and thriving on a lower quality diet, which is why I have Dexters. They do this superbly well but at the other end of the scale I would imagine it's harder to justify keeping Dexters when other breeds can do higher yields so much easier.

Our boys (and girls) get nothing but grass - either fresh or preserved, they do get access to mineral licks and they get a sniff of concentrate once a week - as in 0.5Kg/head - so that they come to us when we call. Cows get what they need rather than what they want - finishers are pretty much ad-lib on silage where applicable once weaned. Any costs really accrue through taking them up to 29months and they come to a good finish. There is no problem in growing them - problems come in selling them - as discussed elsewhere.

Ours do come into sheds in the winter - principally because I don't want to be moving minerals from good to poor fields.

Cheers
mac

[Boofarm]

But when you look at the set up costs of other breeds it doesn't stack up does it?

Not when you can buy registered Dexters at £350 -600 an outfit and a larger breed is 3 times that

Why not just do commercial crosses?

Well they stlill tend to be on the small sde and on the slow side of finishing - Galloway crosses killed out at 270Kg @30 month - but not pushed Angus cross calves live at 320 Kg / 14 month

The beef scheme doesn't permit it and when you are starting off you need all the help you can get - even a few posters and leaflets.

Agreed - but one of the plus points of the Beef Scheme is that it is relatively strict and I have come round to thinking it should stay that way. If we are to develop a market we need consistency. 100% Dexter is fine by me - 100% within Dexter Breed Standard is overly prescriptive imo.

Should the breed be preserved in aspic? Some don't like the polling in a horned breed with question marks about how it came about in some lines however, if the powers that be decided from a health and safety point of view there shouldn't be horned cattle and from a welfare point of view they didn't want disbudding/dehorning either then the breed would have to embrace polling.

I have a polled bull and would pay a premium to have another when the time comes - I find them difficult to dehorn successfully and detest the process, but no way am I having horned cattle about the place.

Will the breed cease to exist if it is not promoted as a commercial prospect?

No it will rumble along in more or less its present form - hobby herds with calves struggling to find a market, with a range of keepers from the pure pets to some trying to make them wash thier faces.

Can it succeed in a commercial market in its present form? This is just one of the issues that should not be decided behind closed doors.

Absolutely not - its a niche market animal - I recently read on another forum of adult dexters being dispersed at £10 per head

Someone here is going to point out that there needs to be a resolution to change the breed standard but if there are so few Dexters that comply then it will change by default

Wow - we have come a long way from "don't worry if its a quarter inch too high as it walks into the slaughterhouse" but ultimately the breed will follow the breeders.

Cheers
mac

[Jac]

Agreed - but one of the plus points of the Beef Scheme is that it is relatively strict and I have come round to thinking it should stay that way. If we are to develop a market we need consistency. 100% Dexter is fine by me - 100% within Dexter Breed Standard is overly prescriptive imo.

Then if it is to remain 100% Dexter that implies that change is required even for a niche market if it is not to rely on steers alone.

[Rob R]

But how can you not be concerned about the heights of animals going to slaughter? Often the only quirk of fate that dictates that an animal goes to slaughter instead of breeding is it's sex or a minor defect.

Because - as you fully realise that animal is being removed from the gene pool. My initial response was to address an implication that Dexters may be marginal as regards breed standard when achieving carcase weights of 200+ Kg. I accept that point and pointed out that we have sourced animals from other breeders which achieve similar size - so we are not looking at isolated cases.

Now - where do you want to take this - because if all animals are to stay within the breed standard then the mating which produced the overheight should not be repeated and perhaps one or more parents de-registered?

If an animal is within the breed standard and throws calves that are within it I see no reason to de-register it, but if you mate two animal that throw calves outside of the breed standard then that isn't a sensible mating any more than if it came out black & white.

[Rob R]

Whether a cow pays for itself is more of an economic niche. Maybe larger cattle need to be more towards the higher input, higher output end of the scale that must then yield more to pay for it's upkeep. My animals must be light and with a large footprint to deal with marshy ground without poaching the land, and thriving on a lower quality diet, which is why I have Dexters. They do this superbly well but at the other end of the scale I would imagine it's harder to justify keeping Dexters when other breeds can do higher yields so much easier.

Our boys (and girls) get nothing but grass - either fresh or preserved, they do get access to mineral licks and they get a sniff of concentrate once a week - as in 0.5Kg/head - so that they come to us when we call. Cows get what they need rather than what they want - finishers are pretty much ad-lib on silage where applicable once weaned. Any costs really accrue through taking them up to 29months and they come to a good finish. There is no problem in growing them - problems come in selling them - as discussed elsewhere.

Ours do come into sheds in the winter - principally because I don't want to be moving minerals from good to poor fields.

Cheers
mac

Let me just correct you there - they get mostly grass, not 'nothing but grass'.

However, I agree that the problems come in selling, not producing them, at least in a commercial market. The problems I find is in selling the hinterland animals of 200kg+ - my private customers want the smaller joints that come from animals up to 180kg max, meanwhile most butchers seem to want them as big as possible and they feel like they're doing you a favour by taking the 'small' 220kg carcass.

In the field I want them small, as two at 300kg will poach less than one at 600kg. Other breeds have also got bigger and as a result they are grazed less as you need more ideal conditions to turn them out. That's where the cost is, the longer they spend inside the more work they take, rather than the feed they consume, but the feed they consume does have to be baled and transported more too.

[Rob R]

The beef scheme doesn't permit it and when you are starting off you need all the help you can get - even a few posters and leaflets.

Agreed - but one of the plus points of the Beef Scheme is that it is relatively strict and I have come round to thinking it should stay that way. If we are to develop a market we need consistency. 100% Dexter is fine by me - 100% within Dexter Breed Standard is overly prescriptive imo.

I agree, we do need consistency, and I think we should achieve that by meeting in the middle, by culling the extremes.

100% within breed standard is too much, as beef if your way to cull out undesirable animals but if you're consistently producing animals that are pushing the boundaries (at one end or the other) then that's more than just culling. As I said before, if your steers are consistently hitting the upper end then that's understandable because of the effect of castration on growth, but if heifers (or bulls) are doing it you've got a worsening problem on your hands.