Back on the high horse

[Rob R]

What exactly are you suggesting breeders do Robin? Other than not selling heifers & buying up cheap stock, what more can be done as an individual breeder?

It'd only take half a dozen breeders around the country to agree to buy the cheap stock & the problem would be eliminated.

[robin walker]

Hi Rob , it is frustrating , i can only inform you of what we hope will happen in Scotland , firstly we don't have Dexters going through the market or at least very seldom , auction houses in Scotland are quite reluctant to accept cattle from over the border . If Dexters enter the market in Scotland it is agents or butchers that are buying and they go straight to their slaughter house .
We as a group are going to try and undertake two special sales per annum , cattle will be vetted before the sale and owners will be persuaded to place reserved prices , if not obtained cattle will be taken home .
I don't think to eliminate the problem is as easy to have a few breeders to buy the cheep cattle going through the market ?. Breeders must be educated not to sell under certain prices and if possible persuaded to pay a few pounds more when purchasing .
I think rather than have owners of Dexters taking them directly to the market at anytime , may be groups could organise to have as we wish to have in Scotland special sales of Dexters , even if it were once a month .
I think over the border you have many more breeders and many more that are not sure how to market their animals other than throw them into the mart and accept any price . You also have many more breeding to show and not really into the production of beef . We don't show at all in Scotland .
Our Scottish group have a few avid breeders who are more than eager to try and make this work .
We may be proved wrong but we feel it has to be tried , if unsuccessful I may even consider giving up breeding Dexters ?.

[Rob R]

I'm intrigued as to what form 'persuasion' would take, for both sellers and buyers. For the most part I think sellers sell cheaply because they have to, due to overstocking and the inability to handle large quantities of meat. Buyers are also, at some point in the future, sellers, so they have to keep in mind what an animal is worth to them - if they are keeping them for profit they have to factor in the cost of getting the animal to market/breeding, if they're keeping them for pleasure it's a case of what is available to buy at the time. Buyers can't be persuaded to spend more as they always have the option of not buying at all - they're under no obligation to spend their money, whereas the seller is often obliged, through circumstance, to sell.

I think you're under estimating the difference that one man with a wagon could make to the Dexter breed as a whole, as it is still a relatively small breed. Many a time I have heard people say that Dexters are so cheap that they could make some money going round buying them all up, but none puts their money where their mouth is and goes out to do it. That suggests to me that Dexters aren't really as cheap as is suggested, and certainly the prices on this site don't suggest that either. I'm a big believer in Adam Smith & his invisible hand. A good Dexter makes it's money at specialist sales (or at least they always do when I want to buy them).

I do agree that we need more dedicated sales for quality cattle - the rare breed sales tend to be once or twice yearly, whereas the weekly store sale is every week, and that often doesn't fit in with many buyers budgets. Any Dexters that do go to general market (not many in my experience in Yorkshire marts) go because other sales channels have failed and the vendors would have a bigger cost keeping them on than the loss from letting them go. The trouble with more regular markets is getting enough stock to give the buyers a selection, and unless you know the breeder you have little assurance of what it is that you're buying and the system it's been reared on.

Stock should only be bred with an outlet in mind, if you don't have an outlet, don't breed the stock, it's that simple. If you roll the dice and breed anyway, you take your chance.

How about this for an idea though - one of the biggest problems with auctions is the cost of getting the animals there & the time wasted if they don't sell. For the buyer you only have a few days to study the catalogue and often very limited data is present, which little chance to ask the seller. Meanwhile ebay is very popular, you have the option to include photos, information & a contact the seller button, all from the comfort of your PC or phone. If we could start an online auction system for pedigree breeding stock & feeding stock that ran year round and eliminated many of the problems of live auctions. The only problem would be that someone would have to run it, and resolve disputes in the same way the physical marts do - perhaps a market could be able to offer this, in exchange for their commission?

[Jac]

Stock should only be bred with an outlet in mind, if you don't have an outlet, don't breed the stock, it's that simple. If you roll the dice and breed anyway, you take your chance.

Ta Dah!

[Jac]

I am sorry I seem to be in the minority in the hope that breeders would like more money for their pure pedigree Dexter breeding females , how silly was I ?.

No, breeders would like to attain the best price possible for their breeding females and although there seem to be a number of vocal people on the site who 'farm' for beef I do not believe that this represents a very large proportion of the membership of the Dexter Cattle Society. Surveys have been conducted indicating that the vast majority are 'interested in beef'. What does that mean exactly?
a) just kill one or two for themselves and family.
b) want to set up as suppliers of youngstock for fattening
c) want to set up to as suppliers of finished stock for someone else to sell the meat
d) want to do the whole process from start to finish

I think that most members of the DCS produce beef as a by-product of their pedigree breeding programme and not the other way round. However, if there is no market for the stock that they are breeding then they either have to scale back their operation or do something that they have no heart for - producing quality breeding stock for other people to eat.

[Rob R]

I think that most members of the DCS produce beef as a by-product of their pedigree breeding programme and not the other way round. However, if there is no market for the stock that they are breeding then they either have to scale back their operation or do something that they have no heart for - producing quality breeding stock for other people to eat.

The thing is, there is a market but it is a finite one. No breeder wants to be the one that scales back their operation, they all, individually would like other people to scale back their breeding so that the supply is restricted and therefore yields better for their own stock.

Made up figures, for illustrative purposes only; You can sell one heifer at £500 or two at £250 and still have the same money. The difference with selling one at £500 is that you still have one eating a hole in your winter forage and taking up space in your field/buildings, which further eats into the £500 you've taken for the first. Better to make them worth an extra £50 and cut your costs by £50 to accept £300 with a 33% increase in margin for a 20% increase in price rather than push the price up by 40% (£250 > £350) to gain a 28% increase in margin (£0 > £100).

I've done a run down of the prices on here though and I think we're in danger of talking the breed down by saying prices are low all the time when I'm struggling to find examples of significant numbers of cheap breeding stock available - where are they all?

[Louisa Gidney]

A couple of years back, I sent an adult infertile bull to the local mart. He made a clear £200 more than I made by taking a proven registered bull to an official Dexter breed sale the same year. The lesson has been learnt.
I have a big problem with "upset" prices at breed sales. For one of my sheep breeds, this was hailed as a good thing, guaranteed price on the day etc. Duly took sheep to Stoneleigh, to find that no-one on the ringside was prepared to bid up to the upset price so my sheep, & most others too, went home. A very expensive mistake. Over the years I've passed cattle at sales but doing the costings afterwards has always proved the old adage that first loss is least loss.
Like Rob, I wonder where these cheap registered pedigree Dexters are. Most of my circuit of bull hire customers are no longer breeding.

[Jac]

It depends on your perspective of 'cheap Dexters'. Having just looked at the prices on the site (making no observations as to the quality of stock offered) I would comment that they haven't altered over the last decade despite increased costs.

[Rob R]

Have they not? For reference, here are the DC4S prices again, as of 31st Jan 2014;

I just thought I'd check out prices to see what we are up against, and here are the results from this site;

Black Bulls x 15 (8 with prices; 2006 x 1, 2007 x 1, 2010 x 2, 2011 x 1, 2012 x 2, 2013 x 1)
av £818.75 (range £350 - 1650)
Red Bulls x 2 (2010 & 2013) av £762.50 (range £675 - 850)
Dun Bulls x 3 (2005, 2010 (BN), 2011) - av £816.67 (range £650 - 800)

Steers
10 ads, 6 with prices
28 + animals (2010 x 5, 2011 x 2, 2012 x 3+, 2013 x 2) - av £478.85 (range £325 - 600)

Black heifers x 13 (9 with prices; 2011 x 4, 2012 x 5) - av £466.67 (range £325 - 650)
Red heifers x 3 (2 with prices; 2011 & 2012) - av £450.00 (range £400 - 500)
Dun heifers x 3 (2 with prices; 2011 & 2013) both £650

Black cows x 16 (12 with prices; 2004 x 4, 2006 x 1, 2007 x 1, 2009 x 3, 2010 x 3) - av £644.58 (range £350 - 800)
Red cows x 7 (2006 x 1, 2007 x 1, 2008 x 3, 2009 x 2) - av £542.86 (range £450 - 600)
Red cows with calf x 4 (2004 x 2, 2009 x 1, 2010 x 1) -av £620 (range £430 - 750)
Red cow with twins (2010) £950

[Jac]

I was only looking at the prices of those posted in the last 7 days. Steer prices have increased quite a bit but for sure the female prices have not kept pace. We do not know how many of the animals offered have actually sold and if they have, whether they sold for the asking price.

[Rob R]

I only bought a couple of black bulling heifers in around that time, but I feel sure they were cheaper than £466, I think they were nearer £350 each.

ETA - No, we don't know if they have sold or at what price, but unless anyone is willing to share their figures, that's all we have to go on.

[Jac]

I think I paid between £400 and £450 for bulling heifers ten years ago.

[Rob R]

Anyhow, it's of little consequence to the future state of prices as to what they were ten years ago verses today, what we need to concentrate on is what they'll be in the next ten years, or ten months. Unless someone goes out and there and buys anything they consider too cheap then the prices aren't going to change much. The only sustainable way to force breeding stock prices up is to start buying stock. The Spring sales are a few months away, so get saving up and lets get spending!

[Louisa Gidney]

What I need, personally, is an outlet for weaned male calves. I don't have the capacity to overwinter. RBST tried to address this some years ago with the concept of finishing units but this seems to have fizzled out. We need more people who aren't interested in breeding but rather in finishing bought in stock.

[Saffy]

Is there any interest in Dexter Rose Veal? I simply ask because I considered sending one straight off the cow this year and a local "posh" restaurant was keen. I didn't do it after as it went for breeding but wondered if that might tick the box for weaned male calves straight off the cow?

Stephanie