Disappointing

[robin walker]

Hi Dominic , at least now at last we have a discussion on board . If marketed properly a niche market can be a very lucrative situation . As you know I am an art agent and a great deal is a niche market , I have artists who can only produce a certain amount of art work but can't keep up with the demand , if marketed it creates demand and prices increase . It could be very easy to sell these at low cost but would not help the market place . If we keep selling pure Dexter cattle at these low cost demand will never go anywhere . I understand and have no problem with people crossing but don't sell something that it isn't . My neighbour sells Wagyu at £7000 a carcass , they have just purchased 350 pedigree cows at £ 2.8 million , a steak is £200 , a burger £65 how has that come about , marketing ,
It is time we had a body that we can contact which can gather and market our pure Dexter beef from one end of the country to the other . Forget the larger stores our customer is the restauranteur and specialised butcher or one that is prepared to take in at a price and sell at a price .
We need to stop breeding the short leg , producing dwarfism does us no good what so ever nature has already intimated that to us all and the Society should now be recognising this . I don't think the labelling stickers that you have to purchase will get off the ground as there is no governing body to control this . I remain as I have said and will stick to my guns there is a market if we raise the profile of pure Dexter beef

[Rob R]

Sorry guys , nobody seems to be getting the point , why should we accept silly prices for pure Dexter cattle , ok everyone is going for the cross the easy way out , why should we have to cross to get a decent price . Some have said more pedigree Dexter breeders should be do this , why , why fool your selves by saying your breeding Dexters when you are actually breeding another animal , it is what I believe you call a Dangus , if you want big carcasses why not go the whole hog and change to a larger breed .
A Dexter with a Dexter is a Dexter , a Dexter with any cross is anything but .
You have stated putting a Dexter X Angus through the ring makes silly money but an Angus X Dexter makes 3to 4 times as much , I bet the butcher buying that animal advertises he is selling the Dexter and not the Angus , why because the word Dexter means a quality rarer animal .

I know exactly where you are coming from Robin, from the early days when I first started keeping cattle I liked the Dexter, the small cow, and I have enjoyed breeding them pure. However, I now appreciate the need for crossing to ensure the breed becomes a commercial animal and doesn't remain a curosity that will surely die out if it doesn't have a viable future.

If you are crossing you are not selling out, quite the opposite; you are actually strengthening the core breed as you are creating demand for them. A farmer who crosses all his Dexters will always need to buy in new dams as no crossbreed breeds its own replacements. Think of the sucess of the North of England Mule sheep - the Swaledale hasn't been killed off by it, as it surely would if it relied entirely upon purebred offspring. Good quality Swaledales have to be bred pure to keep providing the mule mothers.

The very best Dexters are still kept for breeding pure and the not so good ones have more of a value than either breeding more not-so-good pure Dexters or beefing them. When more farmers see the potential there is for a cow that is cheap to keep & produces a saleable calf that doesn't need to be sold direct or to have a relationship with a good butcher to turn a profit, then the demand for good cows will go up even higher than it is now. Therefore good cows will make more money than they do now, producing mediocre cows for the crossing market at a price equal or better than good cows are fetching now, and overall both the quality and number of purebred Dexters will increase.

Crosses will not take the job that Dexters are doing, they will take the job that purebred Dexters fail to achieve and as a consequence create jobs for more purebred Dexters. If the Dexter can build that reputation (as it is doing - when I got my first Dexters they were considered a joke by most 'commercial' [for want of a better word] farmers, these days I tell people I have Dexters and there's more chance of them being respectful of the breed) then people will start to put Dexter on the passport and let the appearance show what the father is.

One of the biggest issues, in my opinion, with raising that Dexter profile is the chondrodysplasia gene defect. You mention a Dexter to any farmer or butcher not associated with the breed and their immediate first thought will be of a tiny short legged animal they saw at a show once. The Dexter is still a small, compact, efficient cow without the short gene defect. It would be very easy to breed it out and still have a Dexter - I don't think we should breed Dexters ever bigger (as you say, you may as well just get a big breed if you want big cattle) but it is not the short leg that defines the Dexter as a good animal. The strength of a breed relies upon consistency that you just don't get with breeding shorts, as at best it's only ever going to be 50/50.

The thing that does define the Dexter, in my opinion, is the ability to produce excellent quality, healthy beef from cheap forages alone. While there is a definite market for good quality beef it is not sufficiently large to justify breeding significantly more Dexters, hence why the price for breeding stock is so low. However, by taking advantage of the price being so low and putting them to a terminal sire you are simulatenously ensuring a better price for pure Dexter beef and for pure Dexter breeders, while putting beef into the market at the expense of other maternal breeds, not the Dexter.

If it says Angus on the passport the butcher will likely be selling it as Angus, just as he would a dairy bred Angus cross. It annoys me a bit too but that's the way it is. He won't be selling it as Dexter though, as there is no proof on the passport that it is a Dexter, unless you look back and cross-reference the dam's eartag number. Ask the man on the street and chances are he's heard of Angus - as Dom says, most supermarkets stock Angus beef, and so do Burger King. They are far less likely to know what Dexter is - more likely they'll think of the US TV show or Colin Dexter of Morse fame.

ETA - cross-posted; I see we concur on the short leg!

[Jac]

My neighbour sells Wagyu at £7000 a carcass , they have just purchased 350 pedigree cows at £ 2.8 million , a steak is £200 , a burger £65 how has that come about , marketing ,

Perhaps you should pass Mr Blezenger’s article on to anyone who is about to jump on your neighbour’s bandwagon. You are describing a true niche market, Dexters were a true niche market when they were a rare breed in Lady Loder's time.

It is time we had a body that we can contact which can gather and market our pure Dexter beef from one end of the country to the other .

Are you confusing marketing with selling? The problem as I see it is that people want to breed Dexters but they don't want to carry it though to a conclusion i.e selling a bag of meat or a side of beef. What you are asking for is a 'Crossgar' scheme. Who is going to run it and how much do you think you going to get per kilo to make it worth someone's while when there are so many people involved in the chain all of whom must be paid. How are you going to force Dexter breeders to join together and operate a cartel to push up the price? How do you think Rob would get on if we compelled him to put his prices up say by 25%?

I remain as I have said and will stick to my guns there is a market if we raise the profile of pure Dexter beef

Of course there is a market for Dexter beef. The Society has been working to raise the profile but at the end of the day, they are not going to sell anyone's beef for them (if that is what they are producing) neither are they going to sell anyone's surplus breeding stock. Marketing can only create awareness you need 'boots on the ground' to finish the job unfortunately, there is a shortage of people who are willing to put them on. Would you give up your normal job tomorrow Robin to start a scheme like Crossgar from scratch?

[Broomcroft]

Going back to the original post, i.e. prices are too low. But are they? As I said before, I have never sold a beast at less than beef value (plus a bit for hassle), but have only once taken stock to market. I don't go to market because you don't get value there, unless you're the buyer .

So to re-phrase the question, are prices too low or are they simply too low at the market, in which case, why do people still go?

[Jac]

Just got back from Morrisons and they are selling 'Little Red Tractor' British Beef Roasting joints for £5.40 a kilo.

[Broomcroft]

get a supermarket involved! booths, morrisons, aldi. just look at the angus and shothorn societies. tesco looking to source 2500 head of angus every week!

At 2500 a week, for one supermaket, the national herd of AA's would disappear in 2-3 years I just calculated. So presumably, that's why they have Angus-sired beef?

Someone did make contact with a supermarket some years ago for Dexter and no doubt they have since. When they realise the herd would be gone in a few weeks it came to an end. Supply situation is probably too small for even a niche product at that level?

[Rob R]

I've said it before & I'll say it again; auctions are the easiest of ways to influence prices. If you want average auction prices to rise then starting sticking your hand in the air.

[domsmith]

Hi Dominic , at least now at last we have a discussion on board . If marketed properly a niche market can be a very lucrative situation . As you know I am an art agent and a great deal is a niche market , I have artists who can only produce a certain amount of art work but can't keep up with the demand , if marketed it creates demand and prices increase . It could be very easy to sell these at low cost but would not help the market place . If we keep selling pure Dexter cattle at these low cost demand will never go anywhere . I understand and have no problem with people crossing but don't sell something that it isn't . My neighbour sells Wagyu at £7000 a carcass , they have just purchased 350 pedigree cows at £ 2.8 million , a steak is £200 , a burger £65 how has that come about , marketing ,
It is time we had a body that we can contact which can gather and market our pure Dexter beef from one end of the country to the other . Forget the larger stores our customer is the restauranteur and specialised butcher or one that is prepared to take in at a price and sell at a price .
We need to stop breeding the short leg , producing dwarfism does us no good what so ever nature has already intimated that to us all and the Society should now be recognising this . I don't think the labelling stickers that you have to purchase will get off the ground as there is no governing body to control this . I remain as I have said and will stick to my guns there is a market if we raise the profile of pure Dexter beef

Haha Robin yes a good debate.
I think your neighbour is struggling to sell allbut the best bits. i see problems in selling wagyu brisket and flank. its fatty and no better than Dexter or Angus. they will have to work hard. plus theyare well backed and the 2.8 million is pocket change for them. but good look to them!

As for he beef stickers, i bought some because my restaurant friend wants dexter beef. but i have no reg or birth notified beasts to sell after this year, so i have the joke of a situation where i am selling beef that is dexter but i cant call it dexter beef.
its a joke!
supermarkets arent the answer i must say, but it would be nice to have a strong outlet for them.

dom

[Broomcroft]

As for he beef stickers, i bought some because my restaurant friend wants dexter beef. but i have no reg or birth notified beasts to sell after this year, so i have the joke of a situation where i am selling beef that is dexter but i cant call it dexter beef.
its a joke!

Dom, If your beef is Dexter, then you can call it Dexter, what else do you call it? You may not be able to use stickers produced by someone else because it's their copyright, but they cannot stop you using the name of the breed or doing your own stickers or sign. You may not be able to call it "Certified Dexter Beef", "Pedigree Dexter Beef", or whatever terms may have been adopted (and presumably registered in some way or a company formed of that name).

[Jac]

As for he beef stickers, i bought some because my restaurant friend wants dexter beef. but i have no reg or birth notified beasts to sell after this year, so i have the joke of a situation where i am selling beef that is dexter but i cant call it dexter beef.
its a joke!

Dom, If your beef is Dexter, then you can call it Dexter, what else do you call it? You may not be able to use stickers produced by someone else because it's their copyright, but they cannot stop you using the name of the breed or doing your own stickers or sign. You may not be able to call it "Certified Dexter Beef", "Pedigree Dexter Beef", or whatever terms may have been adopted (and presumably registered in some way or a company formed of that name).

Re: cannot stop you using the name of the breed
I think you'll find that someone can. Prior to the Society's trademark you could not label or use point of sale material to indicate that your beef was Dexter (even if it was) unless you registered with the government agency responsible (now Rural Payments Agency) and they sent out an independent verifier on an annual basis at your expense (presume this must be similar to farm assured schemes). On that basis, it is currently cheaper to go with the Society's scheme than pay (was if I remember rightly about £300 a year) to the government.

[Broomcroft]

So, as an example, if you have a herd of pedigree Dexters cows/bull, but do not register/birth notify the offspring, then you cannot call them Dexter? I don't believe it. Do you know of some DEFRA/RPA literature that explains it that we could read?

And, off the point really in a way, but how does being registered prove anything? You could have fully registered cattle, use a "whatever" bull, and birth notify the offspring. Or are offspring parent verified?

PS. Sorry this is dragging the topic off-topic!

[Rob R]

That's the EU beef labelling regs for you - you can call it "beef", but anything else has to be approved & verified.

[Rob R]

and the not so good ones have more of a value than either breeding more not-so-good pure Dexters

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

I mean the not so good ones will have more value as breeders of crosses [than their value as breeding more pure stock or for beef], not a greater value than quality breeding stock.

[Broomcroft]

That's the EU beef labelling regs for you - you can call it "beef", but anything else has to be approved & verified.

I can understand that, but it means that no beef can be called by it's breed name without PV'ing the offspring, including pedigree!!! Would doubt that's how it works, and clearly it doesn't because everyone states what the breed / or breeds is/are of their beef. I suppose it just means it can be challenged and then PV'ing or some other test done if required.

[Jac]

So, as an example, if you have a herd of pedigree Dexters cows/bull, but do not register/birth notify the offspring, then you cannot call them Dexter? I don't believe it. Do you know of some DEFRA/RPA literature that explains it that we could read?

And, off the point really in a way, but how does being registered prove anything? You could have fully registered cattle, use a "whatever" bull, and birth notify the offspring. Or are offspring parent verified?

PS. Sorry this is dragging the topic off-topic!

First question
Yes, that is correct as I understand it. We are talking beef labelling here nothing to do with passports. If you PM me your home e-mail address, I will send you the literature from the RPA together with direct correspondance from them. You will need to ask the Society for a copy of the rules of the trademark because I do not have an electronic copy of that.

Second question
No you can't. To be eligible for birth notification both parents of the calf must be registered with the Society as the appendix register has been closed for sometime now.

To be fair, I don't really take much notice of the registration rules (apart from the 30 day rule) because all my cattle are fully registered and in my name - if in doubt contact the Society.