New Start Advice

[cairnhill]

It is probably rather daunting for any existing breeders of registered Dexters in Scotland to contemplate giving advice to someone with a herd of 120. I assume you mean 120 breeding females?

Duncan, thanks for your advice, I had heard your name spoken of highly while we were in Cumbria buying our second group. We have had some specific reasons for choosing Dexters and now have 120 breeding females. I like the term "the poor man's cow" that was used to describe the dexter. Much of the land we have would not be suitable for large cattle, they are very nimble on the wet areas. We had five from Cumbria that we put in an area with woods, they soon took to living in the woods and we couldn't find them for a week. They also seem to have a very strong group instinct.

I think it would be good to see Dexter numbers increasing in Scotland and hope that it does become viable on a larger scale. I will not bank on the pure bred dexters, however I will be keen to keep a group of the best. I'm not currently registered with the society and need to get that sorted, and around 2/3 of the cattle were registered. We are going down the organic root, however I think it will be important to distinguish grass fed cattle with indoor reared, GM fed cattle. It may be difficult to demonstrate this standard unless you are dealing with a local market where you know your customer, as many of the dexter farmers currently do.

I would like to join the group, I will e-mail you with my details.

I'm very encouraged by some of the cross breeds, especially seeing Luing x Dexter competing with pure Luing. I agree that we cannot rush into using cross breeds as we cannot afford too many problems with calving. It was too be said that so far they have all been excellent at calving another plus for the Dexters.

Many thanks for your advice

Andrew

[davidw]

I may be old fashioned, but if the animal isn't 100% Dexter, I don't see how the meat can be honestly described as Dexter. I'm not really bothered what the breed is, so long as the description at point of sale is truthful. Otherwise we are no better than the supermarket that describes their beef as "Hereford" on the front of the pack but prints the origin as "Uruguay" on the back.

I have a good friend who has 60 - 70 pedigree Angus that he rears on grass. He sells the beef in boxes at over £3,000 an animal, and again, he can't produce it fast enough to meet demand. But its sold as what it is. Grass fed, fully mature, pure bred Angus without concentrates or continental crosses.

[Broomcroft]

I don't understand what you are referring to David. My beef isn't described as Dexter unless it's Dexter, it's described as what it is, i.e. Angus cross, or Angus cross Dexter or whatever. Uruguay by the way (and also Argentina) have more "proper" Herefords than we have. And they certainly used to buy the ones that you and I would consider the best ones, the smaller ones, the ones that do best on grass only. I think that has changed now in Argentina as they have had a massive and sudden change over to the feed lot so they can change their land over to arable production, more money in it.

[Broomcroft]

PS. We get the same kilo price regardless of breed. Whether it's Angus, Angus cross, Dexter, Hereford, or whatever native/traditional/rare breed, and whether it's pedigree or not.

[Saffy]

Uruguay and Argentina may have well bred animals but how do they keep them and I am not just talking about whether they eat grass! They are not constricted like we are about what they dose them with, inject them with and how they treat them, also I think the point is to promote British beef, don't you?

Stephanie

[Broomcroft]

There are quite a few people doing dexter cross cairnhill but very few use this board, in fact I can only think of me and two others. I know a few farmers who have been doing it for years, one with 80 dexter females I think, again that one is Angus bulls and lowland like me. If you want to speak to them, I'm sure they'd be pleased to pass on anything they've picked up. If you do then PM/email me and I'll put you in touch.

Cheers

[Kathleen]

Fascinating thread

I am wondering if anyone could explain this comment: "... you should contact a member of the beef network committee the contact details are on the Society website"

I am curious how this committee assists your membership - how it works exactly?

Regards
Kathleen

[Robert & Alison Kirk]

Andrew -

You are obviously in a totally different situation than we are here in the North Cotswolds, where we have very actively promoted our Dexter beef and slaughter an average of four home bred animals a month, going out to chefs, butchers and a farm shop. The herd has been built up steadily since 1990. There is only one way to sell Dexter beef and that is to market it yourself, as buyers in the commercial market place will only pay 'pocket money' prices, even for the very best. We are regularly getting in excess of £1,000 for 20 month old non-short grass fed Dexter beef. Our customers both business and private want local beef, traditionally reared with consistency and provenance. Dexter beef certainly ticks every box and our beef is now sold by word of mouth.

I think I'm right in saying that Scotland is TB free?? We are in a yearly testing area and now clear of TB, but commercial farmers around here do have severe problems when they are in the system of selling stores, as the animals are under restrictions and cannot be moved; this has caused much financial hardship for several farmers. We were closed down with TB about four ago and because we were already in a system of slaughter only, it was only the extra paperwork which caused us hastle and cashflow remained steady. We have slaughtered a lot of lovely heifers because of demand for the beef, but with so many Dexter heifers on the market and some very indifferent ones too, it is the only way forward for us.

You are playing a totally different ball game in Scotland and whereas we have steadily built up our portfolio of customers, you have a very large suckling herd of Dexter cows right from the beginning and it may take some time to build up your clients for Dexter beef. Whilst we would not personally go down the route of cross breeding, it is a case of 'horses for courses' and it may well be in your interest to cross breed in the early days, putting a percentage of your Dexter cows to a Dexter bull until you have built up the business. One word of advice, make sure the sire is another breed as the offspring will have to be registered with BCMS as, for example, Angus X. If you use a Dexter bull they will need to be registered with the BCMS as Dexter X, and if you put them into a market, they are unlikely to achieve the best price.

Over the years we have visited many Dexter herds and whereas commercial cattle farmers either market their cattle through groups/markets, either as fat or store, Dexter breeders do not currently have this option, and each breeder is going their own way. There is an increase in people looking for store Dexters - that may be an option for you, so do keep an eye on this website, under Cattle for Sale or Wanted slots.

Good luck and as with all farmers you need to go down the route which best suits you. Local farmers thought we were silly farming Dexters (after a change of circumstances forced us to diversify from commercial livestock farming) and even our local abattoir thought commercial cattle were a better option, but not now our Boram Dexters are well known and respected in the North Cotswolds.

Kind regards

Alison Kirk
Boram Dexters

[cairnhill]

There are quite a few people doing dexter cross cairnhill but very few use this board, in fact I can only think of me and two others. I know a few farmers who have been doing it for years, one with 80 dexter females I think, again that one is Angus bulls and lowland like me. If you want to speak to them, I'm sure they'd be pleased to pass on anything they've picked up. If you do then PM/email me and I'll put you in touch.

My e-mail adress is andrewlaurawilliamson@googlemail.com . I would be keen to see and learn how other farmers are innovating with cross breeds. I believe that it is vital that we have innovation within farming, and I know that some ideas will not work and will fizzle out but "nothing ventured nothing gained". Many people outside the dexter community laugh at the them, however I can see a lot of hard work and innovation in making the breed a success. Without the hard work and innovation from farmers we will end up leaving the innovation to companies like Monsanto, which would not good for us or the consumers. We all agree that it should be clear what the end consumer is buying, no one here is wanting to sell or has suggest selling X-bred as dexter. We have specific requirements, mainly environmental issues that has made dexter a perfect choice, not primarily the prestige of the brand, although if it helps then I won't complain.

Many thanks to everyone for the encouragement and critisism.

Out of interest, could I ask why people have/have not gone down the organic route?

[cairnhill]

Andrew -

Over the years we have visited many Dexter herds and whereas commercial cattle farmers either market their cattle through groups/markets, either as fat or store, Dexter breeders do not currently have this option, and each breeder is going their own way. There is an increase in people looking for store Dexters - that may be an option for you, so do keep an eye on this website, under Cattle for Sale or Wanted slots.

Thanks for the suggestion and one that I would like to investigate. Our biggest issue is transport and we are as far north as you can go, however I would be interested know if farmers are interested in store dexters and what age they would want to take them from.

Thanks.

[Broomcroft]

We were asked to go organic by butchers, but when we asked them if they would pay us more, the answer was no, or not much, can't remember which.

And one of our neighbours likes to top his thistles in late summer, and of course he's upwind of us . I don't know whether he's trying to go organic but he certainly doesn't like using weed killer!

I'm not very keen on the SA either. When they try and link the words grass-fed and organic together to make the public believe they are one in the same, that makes me cringe.

I've sent your details to the guy with 80 Dexters.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I have not gone organic because I have a lot of land which is very heavy, wet, and full of rushes. It dries out quite well in a reasonable summer, and if I use MCPA spray every few years I get quite a good growth of grass and can make my own hay and silage. Without the spray I would be stuck with buying in winter feed. I also need to dose regularly for fluke. I know the soil assoc. allows treatment for proven disease, but the withdrawal is twice the data sheet recommendation I think.

I am not sure what the organic regulations are for vaccines, I have also been vaccinating for BVD as it is so prevalent, but hopefully that will change in the next three years. I have come to regret the vaccine, as I used Pregsure, now credited with causing the bleeding calf syndrome, which I have suffered from and will suffer again unless I prevent affected cow's giving newborn calves any colostrum. Cue to start another thread there?

What I do try to do is produce beef with as little input as possible, no fertiliser, no concentrate feed, mineral blocks only when I think they are in real need. Except the bulls they all outwinter.

Duncan

[domsmith]

I have only just picked up on this thread, its great!!

I would just like to question your thoughts on organic, you could not pay me to go organic i just dont get it!
I am sure to be proved wrong and would stand corrected, but i dont know of a viable orgainc meat business in my locality. Several have gone out this year in fact.
I dont believe the store cattle sector will be any better for organic either.

I have to admire you for going full at it. Dexters are a magnificent protein producing machine, converting grass to milk then meat. Like Clive says the costs we incur are a fraction that of the big mass production boys.
I have found recently, and suprisingly, how sought after dexter stores are. but the future for a commercial dexter farm is crossbreeding. using the maternal traits of calving and milk to rear a valuable store calf. very different from producing a niche beef animal. You need to choose a breed that is easy for a store buyer to reconise, so we have chosen angus, chose something non main stream and you can allienate your buyers. you only have to go to any store sale and you will see the highlanders/ shorthorns/galloways etc etc harder to clear in the ring.
We are going from killing and processing all our animals to running the herd as a store producing herd.
the papers are full just recently of how much money you will lose for every suckler cow you own. look at those figures and you see the problem. too many new tractors, too much feeding concentrate and housing the beasts. Cut out all that, which you can with a Dexter and thats the secret to profit. Its not the end weigth you produce but how much it costs you to produce it that counts.
Being organic wont help you a jot to acheive any of that!

keep it up!

dominic

[cairnhill]

the papers are full just recently of how much money you will lose for every suckler cow you own. look at those figures and you see the problem. too many new tractors, too much feeding concentrate and housing the beasts. Cut out all that, which you can with a Dexter and thats the secret to profit. Its not the end weigth you produce but how much it costs you to produce it that counts.
Being organic wont help you a jot to acheive any of that!

keep it up!
dominic

I think it depends upon your situation. I think if I was Clive then I would not go organic, it is hard to justify it, you have built up a reputation with suppliers and the suppliers will not pay any more so it will just cost you. We are starting out without a local market or reputation, this will give us a standard to attach to our product, which in my opinion has far more substance than for example the red tractor quality assurance which I struggle to understand what can it mean for the end consumer?
Our situation is that we have a farm without infrastucture that needs investment and the Scottish Government aims to increase organic production within Scotland. So the organic conversion will allow us to turn a farm that has not been used for eight years into hopefully a fully working productive farm as well as enhancing the wildlife (although we will need to get rid of some of the 90+ deer).

It is very helpful to see the reasons why people have not converted though.

[pudser]

Clive,
Is there any update on the Dangus steers.Did you kill any at Christmas and what bull did put to the Dasngus heifers?

kind Regards

Paddy