Semen for Holland - information about hight of AI bulls

Anna · Post by **Anna** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:07 pm

Wow Liz, a testimony like your really make a difference as I am trying to guess which bull to choose!

I have been working on getting a permission to import Elmwood Mackoy straws for quite a while, but things move very slow. Now, after this thread I may find some new energy to start bother UK Sire Services again.. The issue is that Sweden requires a certificate stating that the bull has not been exposed to BSE, and this certificate seems difficult to find.

My cows have some Woodmagic background since they are from a herd built on Danish Dorthealyst cows, and Dorthealyst was built on Woodmagic cows. So like 25 years ago they where WM, and this is not very many gerations away. They still are pretty small and I experince height being quite consistent whitin the population. Sadly, but not surprisingly, some of the milking genes have been lost after 20 years of working as suckler cows.

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Hello Anna,

What a shame that some of the milk has been lost in your dexters. As you know my herd is almost entirely Woodmagic and they are all very small non shorts that milk and milk with lovely shaped udders thanks to Beryl breeding for the milking parlour! I feel for you wanting and needing the milky ones and not able to just go out and get what you want like I did. I realise I was SO lucky to be able to buy from Beryl! :D

Stephanie

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:35 pm

Hello Anna,

What a shame that some of the milk has been lost in your dexters. As you know my herd is almost entirely Woodmagic and they are all very small non shorts that milk and milk with lovely shaped udders thanks to Beryl breeding for the milkimg parlour! I feel for you wanting and needing the milky ones and not able to just go out and get what you want like I did. I realise I was SO lucky to be able to buy from Beryl! :D

Stephanie

Sorry didn't mean to post it up twice!!!!! :laugh:

Edited By Saffy on 1298118987

Anna · Post by **Anna** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:21 pm

Saffy wrote:I feel for you wanting and needing the milky ones and not able to just go out and get what you want like I did. I realise I was SO lucky to be able to buy from Beryl!

It is very unfair, isn´t it!

Well, my cow is not a very crappy milker. But above all I don´t want a new generation that is poorer than what I have now. Breeding for specific tasks is difficult with two cows, but at least I have to try my best.

My major complaint about my dexter is that she weaned herself after six months last year. This lactation she is doing better though. I have heard that cows of breeds that often live for many years tend to give modest amounts the first years, but improve a lot later. Can that be true, or a is it a myth?

Since my cow feeds both her calf and me I don´t know how much she really gives. If I guess/calculate, she will give something between 3500 and 4000 lbs during her second lactation. That is if she keeps milking for 300 days. And if my estimation of the amounts she holds for the calf is correct. I have checked the Woodmagic milk records from 1971-72, and some cows in their second lactation gave comparable amounts. Not the best ones, more like the worst ones. Anyone who knows if there are any WM milk records for more recent years? Would be so interesting to see what the herd milked some years later.

JohnO · Post by **JohnO** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:06 am

I have just registered on the bulletin board, inorder to contribute to this discussion. Reading Duncan Macintyres contribution left me dissappointed. He seems to lack an understanding of Ireland its people its cattle and more particularly their history. If any book may be of help to Dexter breeders it is Patrick Currans detailed book with references on the subject of Kerry and Dexter Cattle published in 1990. The illustrations are numerous and the bibliography extensive. Mr Curran was well qualified to write on this subject being highly successful and published in the subjects of agriculture, biological science and history.

If you can't find time to read the book at least look at some of the illustrations such as Fig 4.4 Kerry Bull "8.K.R" dated 1887; Fig 6.1 One of the last of the original pedigree Dexters of County Kerry.
ISBN 0860270289
This book may be available via an ILL (Inter Library Loan) through your local library

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:47 am

John,

I am sorry that you are disappointed by my view, but as I said in the post the Dexter comes in a wide variety and so do the owners, and I do respect that.

I have a signed copy of Patrick Curran's book on the shelf by my desk, and it is regularly off the shelf to refer to. I have read it from cover to cover several times over the years. Time moves on, and fortunately we now know much that Prof Curran did not and could not about the inheritance of bulldog gene and many other things.

Despite the fact that the Dexter and Kerry shared a herd book and no doubt had other links, modern day analysis of the DNA of cattle breeds does not sustain the view that the breeds were as linked as once was thought.

Can you expand a little on which part of my post disappoints you? My idea that the Dexter originated without the chondrodysplasia gene is merely that, I cannot prove that I am correct. But whether I am or not, my aim is to produce Dexters of the traditional size as pictured in fig 6.1 of Prof Curran's book without the bulldog gene and which will breed true. If that disappoints you I would be please to hear why.

I have read a little of Irish history and of Scottish. The relationship between man and cattle is fascinating, and it is interesting to compare the role of cattle in different societies at different stages of history. My own family has lived by cattle as far back as I can trace on my father's side, but of course coming from Argyll they were Highland cattle and their fore-runners.

I am sorry to have disappointed you, feel free to contact me direct if you would like.

Duncan

PorcPrunus NL · Post by **PorcPrunus NL** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:55 pm

Duncan MacIntyre wrote:I have spent the last decade with a small herd aiming to produce cows of about 38 inches and bulls of about 43 inches, having eliminated the chondrodysplasia gene from my herd. My current carcase weights are about 120kg, from a live weight of say 240kg, finished of nothing but grass at 26 moinths or thereabouts. Assuming that an animal of that age equates to about 2/3 of its eventual totally mature weight, I think that is about right for the Dexter of the late 19th and early 20th century.

There are many others out there quietly breeding only non chondro Dexters, and having observed some of those herds for over 25 years now, I can assure you that in the long term the policy pays of, the quality improves with each generation. The depth of body, weight of bone, and general conformation in some herds has produced a very acceptable animal, in contrast to herds where the selection is for the short leg. In some of those herds the short leg has got much bigger, heavier, with heads and feet out of proportion. They have lost the appeal of "Rosemary", No 4 in the 1890 Dublin Herd Book.

I think we can produce the likes of Rosemary without the chondro gene.

Duncan

Hello Duncan,

I've read Beryls book, and I liked her way to breed little Dexters. I didn't like the part of inbreeding.

I think cows from about 38 inch without the bulldog-gene would be perfect for Holland. When such animals are available --> breeding with carriers would stop soon!

That takes me back to my question, wich AI bulls can I use, of should not be used, to breed Dexter cows from 38-40 inch without Bulldog-gene.

Woodmagic bulls are not available on AI in the Netherlands. Moomin Posh is available, and I have used him already. I've seen nice progeny from him when we were at Di Smith's farm (AGM 2010).
We have also seen Breoch Sultan and daughters from him. They look nice and small, but it's difficult to get semen from him for export. Not all the papers are easily available.
There may be some bulls more available on AI, Moomin MacDuff, Elmgrove Millenium, Elmwood Mackoy, Elmwood Robson, Stargate Pendraggon and Donardgrange Rob.
Is there any bull in this list from who you think he could do something good to breed smaller than 42 inch?

about the picture from Rosemary, I've seen that picture a time ago at dex-info.net but the information on that site is gone. Does anybody know where the information from Dex-info has moved to?

Edited By PorcPrunus NL on 1298242786

Minnie · Post by **Minnie** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:55 pm

Hi Duncan,

You didn't disappoint me, in fact some of what you wrote is my view as well.

I've had a prominent person in our association tell be at an agricultural day that the chrondo animal is the 'true' dexter. My thoughts are if that were true, left to their own devices they would have bred out the chrondo. Man (and women) doggedly breeding the carrier has kept it alive.

My view is that if there is no uniformity in the herd how can it stand up as a breed? A local retired vet brought this to my attention by stating Dexter is not a true breed as there's no uniformity and they have to be crossed with another breed to prevent the bulldog calf.

For me the thing that drew me to dexters was the size and the dual purposeness, We've tried to ensure our herd has a milky lineage because the value will be selling the cows as housecows, something that more people are looking at these days.

This has been such an interesting thread, thank you all.
:D
Vicki

JohnO · Post by **JohnO** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:15 am

Duncan ,
Thank you for your response . I would have replied earlier but have been busy tending my small Irish farm . You ask what disappointed me, largely it was the complete lack of evidence provided to support the opinions you expressed. It is great to note that you have read Curren's book and fascinating that you speak on his behalf. In your response you mention further evidence that might have changed Curren's view. Would you please direct me to this evidence? I think I have read the most recently published genetic studies on Dexter cattle but had to go to an American website to get access to them. One shows a close affinity between the Dexter and the Jersey and another a close affinity between at least one Dexter line and the Kerry. I would not have expected your herd to show close affinity to the Kerry given its high incidence of outcrossing to other breeds. Also I have no references to polled or dun Dexters in the original Irish populations at least not those entered in the Herd books of RDS or Killarney.

A further disappointment was your view on Dexter measurements, as a member of DCS council I thought you would be familiar with the process that directs the breed description . I note that appendix 4 of Curren's book gives a description for a Dexter cow and bull as suggested by the DCS in 1959 "cows will vary upto about 44 inches at the shoulder" no height is given for bulls . Earlier this year a wall chart arrived in the post giving the upper limit for a Dexter cow as 44" at the rump. Mind you last years chart gave the gestation period of a Dexter as 263 days and this year it is 283 days .
In my limited Dexter breeding to date the aim is to produce animals around 40 inches at the rump and not exceeding 42 inches . All the Dexters on my farm are non carriers of chondrodysplasia. This is a decision I intend to revisit over the next couple of years as the prices available for carriers, both here and in the UK, are substantially higher. Carrier females at the Knightsway dispersal made almost twice as much as non carriers. Once all the females in my herd meet the old breed standard I will select a carrier bull which over time should give me some carriers to sell.
Just popping back to the wall chart for a few minutes, all the animals illustrated have a rather short hip to pin distance in proportion to the overall back length . this does not correspond to early images titled Dexter, Kerry Dexter, or Kerry. The extant Kerry population in Ireland has animals with a long hip to pin distance in proportion to overall back length as do a few Dexter lines . Also of note are the low rounded hook bones on the cattle illustrated, odd ! not a feature of early Dexters or Kerries . It seems major alterations to what the Dexter appears to have been took place largely in England ! post export from Ireland.

Regarding your offer to contact you directly I feel that this discussion should be open to all.

Oh and by the way I don't go to Church !

JohnO · Post by **JohnO** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:15 am

Duncan ,
Thank you for your response . I would have replied earlier but have been busy tending my small Irish farm . You ask what disappointed me, largely it was the complete lack of evidence provided to support the opinions you expressed. It is great to note that you have read Curren's book and fascinating that you speak on his behalf. In your response you mention further evidence that might have changed Curren's view. Would you please direct me to this evidence? I think I have read the most recently published genetic studies on Dexter cattle but had to go to an American website to get access to them. One shows a close affinity between the Dexter and the Jersey and another a close affinity between at least one Dexter line and the Kerry. I would not have expected your herd to show close affinity to the Kerry given its high incidence of outcrossing to other breeds. Also I have no references to polled or dun Dexters in the original Irish populations at least not those entered in the Herd books of RDS or Killarney.

A further disappointment was your view on Dexter measurements, as a member of DCS council I thought you would be familiar with the process that directs the breed description . I note that appendix 4 of Curren's book gives a description for a Dexter cow and bull as suggested by the DCS in 1959 "cows will vary upto about 44 inches at the shoulder" no height is given for bulls . Earlier this year a wall chart arrived in the post giving the upper limit for a Dexter cow as 44" at the rump. Mind you last years chart gave the gestation period of a Dexter as 263 days and this year it is 283 days .
In my limited Dexter breeding to date the aim is to produce animals around 40 inches at the rump and not exceeding 42 inches . All the Dexters on my farm are non carriers of chondrodysplasia. This is a decision I intend to revisit over the next couple of years as the prices available for carriers, both here and in the UK, are substantially higher. Carrier females at the Knightsway dispersal made almost twice as much as non carriers. Once all the females in my herd meet the old breed standard I will select a carrier bull which over time should give me some carriers to sell.
Just popping back to the wall chart for a few minutes, all the animals illustrated have a rather short hip to pin distance in proportion to the overall back length . this does not correspond to early images titled Dexter, Kerry Dexter, or Kerry. The extant Kerry population in Ireland has animals with a long hip to pin distance in proportion to overall back length as do a few Dexter lines . Also of note are the low rounded hook bones on the cattle illustrated, odd ! not a feature of early Dexters or Kerries . It seems major alterations to what the Dexter appears to have been took place largely in England ! post export from Ireland.

Regarding your offer to contact you directly I feel that this discussion should be open to all.

Oh and by the way I don't go to Church !

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:40 am

If people want to breed carriers, then breed carriers, but as long as they realise that the gene masks the true genetic size of the animal. In our ignorance, we used a carrier bull when we started because he was only about 42-44" high (that's a guess, I didn't measure him). We had offspring from him, especially out of a tiny carrier cow, that were truly massive height-wise. Again I didn't measure them but at a guess, if they'd been left to grow on instead of being culled for beef, they'd have reached way over 50". I reckon that the one out of this particular carrier/carrier combination would have made 55" at 4 years plus.

Isn't it completely illogical to have a height standard and measure a carrier? If you base everything on simple height measurements and then apply those to carriers, you'll end up with massive Dexters!!! Otherwise what's the point of a standard?

If you want to see a good discussion the subject, go to be American forum where they have tried to come up with a dual standard in terms of measuring simple physical height, that represents the true underlying genetic height of the beast carrying the faulty gene. i.e. a standard that has say 4-6" difference between the two types. A tall non-carriers can be shorter than a short carrier which is what we had.

Duncan - Maintaining the true height of the breed, whatever actual figure you want to agree upon, is paramount and beef production has and will have a huge effect not only on height, but mainly on size and also on the animals passing on beef genes and loosing it's dual-purpose genes. I have some example here, not many though, that will only produce milk on about the scale of an Angus. My beef business took me down that road accidentally, but because I had got to know Beryl and others, I decided it was better to cross and get what I wanted than to spoil what they had being trying to maintain. You cannot stop this from happening so it might be best to encourage crossing as a way of maintaining better purity/size. With a 3/4 cross dexter, you apparently get the both of both worlds, taste and a better butchers carcass.

As I mention crossing, I would really not recommend crossing with carriers if my experience is anything to go by. I did it by accident once and the result was horrible. It snorted and walked like a spider till it was 4-5 months and he was not a happy bunny. I was on the point of shooting it all the time but didn't. Now it's about 12 months, it walks better and the snorting has reduced to the odd grunt.

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Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:29 am

Hello JohnO,

I don't believe in being anonymous on this site. It is considered polite for users to either sign in with the herd prefix, or if not to sign out with a real name or herd prefix, herd number or perhaps part of an address.

Also it is nice to welcome new members and know something about them and thier herds.

Stephanie

Edited By Saffy on 1298277323

Anna · Post by **Anna** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:31 am

PorcPrunus NL wrote:
Duncan MacIntyre wrote: about the picture from Rosemary, I've seen that picture a time ago at dex-info.net but the information on that site is gone. Does anybody know where the information from Dex-info has moved to?

The Dex-info articles might be here: http://dex-info.blogspot.com/

JohnO · Post by **JohnO** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:35 am

Apologies. I originally tried to join using my Dexter Cattle Society member reference number as my ID but the purely numeric ID was a problem. My name is John O'Neill. My herd name is Kyleroe and member reference is 32802.

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:08 am

Hello JohnO,

I look forward to learning about you and your herd.

I'm not too great on computers but will try to explain how you can put in your details if you would like - I added mine after I joined once I found out how....

If you click on your log in - John O, your particulars come up and you can go into your Control Panel, somewhere on there it lets you leave a signature, I put in our names and herd prefix and number.

Stephanie

Edited By Saffy on 1298283078