Question regarding herd book and Chonrodysplasia - BDI-N

Denise · Post by **Denise** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:18 am

and here is a valuable link to the research work done by Julie cavanagh to find this gene.

http://www.dex-info.net/summchond.htm

this site has some super, although nowdays may be a bit dated, information on our cattle, and should be used more popularly than it is.

Regards

dizzydex · Post by **dizzydex** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:35 am

Thank you

Minnie · Post by **Minnie** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:17 am

Hi Margaret and Denise,

The one thing missing is that our Australian members aren't obliged to put on the herdbook if they test positive for chrondo or PHA, it is entirely up to the breeder.

So while our AI list shows this status only by breeders actually stating it will the herd book reflect 'all' the information.

Interestingly Denise the bull used as a sample 'BRAMBLEDEL REDBERRY PRINCE' was marked originally as a Poll bull and I knew someone looking for a red poll semen. But on seeing a photo of him on the owners site realised he was dehorned and wrote to confirm and then got the herd book changed.

I think a good herd book is absolutely essential to a breeding programme. It's a bit of a bug bear of mine at times with information that's incorrect. So only by members giving 'all' the information and checking that it's been included correctly can it be used the way I'd think it was intended.
:D
Vicki

Denise · Post by **Denise** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:42 pm

Vicki - I have to say this to you an all !

Testing is not compulsory - you would be calling your DCAI Council "big brother" if it were otherwise.

That, most extra tests that YOU the owner of an animal pay for, are your intellectual property - if YOU chose to share that information for the good of our breed - excellent, but as many dont, more is the pity.

Hiding ANY fault or problem that is genetically inherent in any animal - that YOU KNOW about - to me is tantamount to fraud if you try and sell the animal on. Remember, the old adage of "caveat emptor" is no longer sacrosanct at law!

And, here I am NOT just referring to the Dexter cattle, but to horse, dog, sheep goat, apalaca breeders and breeds, and any other livestock you care to mention - all will have known problems, and not many people "fess up" at sale time, preferring the comfort of that immediate dollar in the pocket than the long-term goal of "improvement" of that particular species. Again, more is the pity because it can, and does, sour newbies to a breed, thereby giving breeders a bad name! And, puts the health and genetics of a breed back rather than forward!

- maybe I'm just old-fashioned, (as well as old,) in that I believe "honesty is the best policy" in my life as was drummed in to me by my dad!

Err - here endeth the sermon for today - and its only Saturday folks!

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:47 pm

I'd guess that polled or horned is probably a common error because when you first notify the birth or register, some will think the calf is polled but later grows horns. I've even got one Angus X Dexter that has just developed horns, although I think they are just large scurs as they seemed quite loose.

If I remember correctly, I was confused by the options on the electronic registration form which I think were "None", "Horned", or "Polled". I actually still don't understand it. Is an animal that has been disbuded "Horned" or is it "None". It's not that unusual to hear people refer to a disbuded animals as polled as well. To me an animal that has the horns removed is not horned, so the answer must be "None" because it can't be Polled!

We went a long way once to buy Dexters and got there to find the whole herd was horned and we wanted disbudded or polled animals. It was a nice day out though :D.

dizzydex · Post by **dizzydex** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:35 pm

Hi Denise I guess it is the buyers responsibility to check information regarding the Dexter being purchased. In my experience of keeping Gloucester Old Spots people want the pigs for different reasons and are not so hung up on the breeding essentals such as myself. What I can't quite get my head around is that a stage 2 elite bull can have this grand title without a Chronrodysplasia test. Myself and another breeder person will be looking around for tested stock soon to expand our herds. We have decided not to purchase unless tested and now regret purchasing stock without first thinking this through. My current girls will be tested and then I have the hard decision as to what I do with any potential carriers.

Such an interesting debate that I am sure will return again and again in the future as prices will, I am sure, dictate the quality of the stock for sale

Denise · Post by **Denise** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:43 am

Hi Clive, and that is a continuing problem. usually caused by lack of knowledge on behalf of a newer member registering a calf, who was born genetically horned but was dehorned, therefore to them as it had no horns it was poll.

- I know how confusing it can be, which is why one of our Concil spent 12 months + trying to eradicate the problems by going thru the herdbook, and getting the obvious ones corrected, and the not so obvious clarified - more power to her it would have been a teeth grinding exercise I would think. Glad u had a nice day out tho!

Denise · Post by **Denise** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:48 am

Hi Julie - I hope we have helped you sort it all out in youre mind. I noticed while I was in the UK early this year for Beryls funeral, that many breeders don't use the chondo test as an absolute tool the way many of our breeders do.

But you are right, u will always pay more for quality, and youre better off starting up with a couple of "good uns" rather than a heap of not so "good uns" - you will get further along faster with a small herd that way.

Hope youre all enjoying your summer - weve just had good rain but its darn cold still and all the animals look like furry balls! - kind of what the UK animals looked like when I was there .. ... ggl

redhill · Post by **redhill** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:15 pm

I agree the horned, none and polled are very confusing, there can only be two categories, horned and polled, the only other way could be to delete the none option and have a dehorned option but then would they have been dehorned by the time you have to register them, anyone selling stock that have been dehorned should make it perfectly clear that they have been dehorned and that they will produce horned offspring.
as most Dexter people know we have a totally horned herd and if anyone enquires about stock the first thing I tell them is we are a horned herd and that whilst it is always possible to remove the horns you cannot put horns back on a dehorned animal.
Bill, Castlemears Dexters

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:59 pm

According to my dictionary, Polled means having had the horns cut off or naturally polled.

redhill · Post by **redhill** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:25 pm

yes Clive,and its right, if you remove horns or branches or whatever you have polled the item, but for purposes of giving others a correct status of your animal do you not think it would be better if we had horned, dehorned or polled, the first obviously being when the animal is left as it is born with the ability of growing horns, the seconed being when having been born with the ability to grow horns but having had these removed and the third being when it is born naturally hornless.
Bill, Castlemears Dexters

Denise · Post by **Denise** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:43 pm

Well, to confuse you all a bit more.

the Horned variety is a genetic, not dictionary meaning.

And in that case the animals are either genetically horned or genitcally polled.

However, there is the 3rd one - scurred - which are - for want of a better term, a bit like the "chestnut" on a horses front leg, a horn-like growth attached to the skin rather than through the skin. Scurred is usually considered a variant of genetic poll, not genetic horned.
:D

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:42 am

My tuppence worth, for what it's worth:
Herd book registration is not the same as advertising for sale.
Registration categories should be genetic, ie horned or poll.
Advertising should be more descriptive, ie horned, dehorned, poll, or scurred.
Even if buds can't be felt, the whorls or lack of whorls will tell the tale on horned or poll.
Margaret

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:58 am

It just needs to be clear and something that doesn't need discussion. So terms like "Naturally Polled" might be best.

Scurs are a problem. As I said I have an Angus X Dexter that has grown scurs, but I would call that animal naturally polled.