It is good to know Anna that the small size is of such importance, it is what I and other enthusiasts have been arguing for a long time. The Kerry is quite a lot bigger than the Dexter should be, and while the Kerry may advertise its beefing qualities, there is little likelihood of it comparing with the Dexter, which has always been bred for it, while the Kerry concentrated solely on milk for generations.
Appearance is only important insofar as it indicates the likely adherence of the animal to the recognised breed qualities
Beryl (Woodmagic)
Breed Standards
Anna
I think you could live with a kerry. If you are lucky enough or clever enough to choose the right type. There are some mediocre strains out there, as with all breeds, but there are also some beauties. I started my rare breeds with Kerries and moved on to keep all three of the Irish Breeds. The heifers are 'flighty' at the start but after calving settle and quite dociledown to become excellent mothers. My comments on beef flavour are prejudiced as you will see. They are about the same size or slightly larger than the Jersey. They are excellent milkers and this is their main drawback to me the suckler farmer, though in the 12 years of keeping them I did not have a case of mastitis. Crossed with a beef breed they have the quantity and quality of milk to produce and excellent beef carcase.
I had a Kerry bull for a number of years. He followed the reputation of many Dairy bulls in that he was wicked. He eventually decided that I was enemy number 1 and that I should be killed. I do not exaggerate. He was amenable to other people but not to me. Eventually he was slaughtered and puit in the freezer. Every time I had a bite of him I thought he was particularly tasty even though others thought him a bit tough!!!!
Ian
I think you could live with a kerry. If you are lucky enough or clever enough to choose the right type. There are some mediocre strains out there, as with all breeds, but there are also some beauties. I started my rare breeds with Kerries and moved on to keep all three of the Irish Breeds. The heifers are 'flighty' at the start but after calving settle and quite dociledown to become excellent mothers. My comments on beef flavour are prejudiced as you will see. They are about the same size or slightly larger than the Jersey. They are excellent milkers and this is their main drawback to me the suckler farmer, though in the 12 years of keeping them I did not have a case of mastitis. Crossed with a beef breed they have the quantity and quality of milk to produce and excellent beef carcase.
I had a Kerry bull for a number of years. He followed the reputation of many Dairy bulls in that he was wicked. He eventually decided that I was enemy number 1 and that I should be killed. I do not exaggerate. He was amenable to other people but not to me. Eventually he was slaughtered and puit in the freezer. Every time I had a bite of him I thought he was particularly tasty even though others thought him a bit tough!!!!
Ian
Joan and Ian Simpson
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
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Broomcroft
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Here's a link to my cow that I thought was a little Kerry'ish. I can't put the photo direct on the site because it won't let me use a GIF file and I don't want to change it.
Caenwen
She is fairly petite which you can't see in the photo and she is an excellent breeder. Her calves are stockier than her shape would lead you to believe and everything is jet black from her. Her face is short, not stretched out like the Kerry cattle I have seen photos of.
Yes, the genetics project, does it really exist I ask?
Edited By Broomcroft on 1219734667
Caenwen
She is fairly petite which you can't see in the photo and she is an excellent breeder. Her calves are stockier than her shape would lead you to believe and everything is jet black from her. Her face is short, not stretched out like the Kerry cattle I have seen photos of.
Yes, the genetics project, does it really exist I ask?
Edited By Broomcroft on 1219734667
Clive
There are some interesting reading about Kerrys and Dexters on dex-info.net.
This is one of them: http://www.dex-info.net/summbuys_chiperzak.htm
This is one of them: http://www.dex-info.net/summbuys_chiperzak.htm
Anna Bergstrom
Sweden
Sweden
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Rutherford
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Clive, Caenwen is certainly a very dairy type, although her head is definitely Dexter and not Kerry. I expect she has the capability to do her calves well, and providing she is put to a good beef bull like all dairy animals she will produce a good beef calf, the conformation of the calf will be influenced by the bull since beef characteristics are strongly inherited.
The last I heard the publication of the paper was imminent, that was a month ago, I will make enquiries.
Ian, as an Irishman you put up an excellent defence for the Kerry, but a Dexter should be a good deal smaller than a Jersey, although of totally different build.
Anna, I think the New Zealand site is well worth exploring, he has amassed a lot of interesting material, although the one you quote is a bit dated, and again tries to substantiate the myth that the Dexter is descended from the Kerry.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
The last I heard the publication of the paper was imminent, that was a month ago, I will make enquiries.
Ian, as an Irishman you put up an excellent defence for the Kerry, but a Dexter should be a good deal smaller than a Jersey, although of totally different build.
Anna, I think the New Zealand site is well worth exploring, he has amassed a lot of interesting material, although the one you quote is a bit dated, and again tries to substantiate the myth that the Dexter is descended from the Kerry.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
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Louisa Gidney
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Bit out of sequence now, but to return to my digression into prehistory, Carol Cope (Zoology Dept, Hebrew University, Jerusalem) uses the description "extreme dwarfism" to describe the size reduction in the metapodials, 1st phalanges & astragali of Natufian gazelles, which therefore produce a sharp drop in mean size AND an expanded coefficient of variation.
Do remember everyone that, professionally, I deal with dry bones, not live animals. I'm some way off doing the statistical number crunching on my Dexter reference skeletons but the point I'm trying to make is that, particularly with the immature beef animals, I cannot tell short from non-short just by looking at the bones. If I did not have this information I would not be able to extrapolate it from the bones. These are whole bones, the normal breakage patterns associated with butchery & marrow extraction which comminute the archaeological finds I work on render visual identification of a short leg carrier from a small normal even more improbable.
This is in sharp contrast to other forms of dwarfism seen in archaeological material - last year I published the earliest known (to date) archaeological example of the Ancon sheep mutation, another form of achondroplasia, where there are gross and unmistakable changes to the structure of the metapodials. This expression of achondroplastic dwarfism does not appear in the short leg Dexter skeletons that I have.
Do remember everyone that, professionally, I deal with dry bones, not live animals. I'm some way off doing the statistical number crunching on my Dexter reference skeletons but the point I'm trying to make is that, particularly with the immature beef animals, I cannot tell short from non-short just by looking at the bones. If I did not have this information I would not be able to extrapolate it from the bones. These are whole bones, the normal breakage patterns associated with butchery & marrow extraction which comminute the archaeological finds I work on render visual identification of a short leg carrier from a small normal even more improbable.
This is in sharp contrast to other forms of dwarfism seen in archaeological material - last year I published the earliest known (to date) archaeological example of the Ancon sheep mutation, another form of achondroplasia, where there are gross and unmistakable changes to the structure of the metapodials. This expression of achondroplastic dwarfism does not appear in the short leg Dexter skeletons that I have.
Zanfara Dexters
Tow Law
Co. Durham
Tow Law
Co. Durham
Clive, I have a number of cows in my herd that look very similar to the picture you have shown. Though they usually have a straighter underline than that.
We only have two female carriers at present. One with BD1 and one with BD2. The BD1 carrier is about to deliver her last calf, sometime this week. The BD2 carrier will produce her first calf in January.
The milking ability of the non-carrier Dexters is good enough to grow their calves to within an inch or two of their dam's height and 180-200 kg by 6 months of age, which is when I wean them. Considering the land the cows have, to work this feat on, I am more than happy with their mothering abilities.
As one who is purposely breeding towards a non-carrier herd of waist high cattle, I think the most important factor is the genetic height of the bull. Our carrier bull never produces non-carrier calves that are as short as the non-carrier calves from our non-carrier bulls. So there is no consistancy in using a carrier bull. Therefore, I don't see the point in using one. Our non-carrier bull will be sold at the end of this year. Hopefully by then, I will have a few more non-carrier heifers from him. He seems to throw more males than female calves.
We only have two female carriers at present. One with BD1 and one with BD2. The BD1 carrier is about to deliver her last calf, sometime this week. The BD2 carrier will produce her first calf in January.
The milking ability of the non-carrier Dexters is good enough to grow their calves to within an inch or two of their dam's height and 180-200 kg by 6 months of age, which is when I wean them. Considering the land the cows have, to work this feat on, I am more than happy with their mothering abilities.
As one who is purposely breeding towards a non-carrier herd of waist high cattle, I think the most important factor is the genetic height of the bull. Our carrier bull never produces non-carrier calves that are as short as the non-carrier calves from our non-carrier bulls. So there is no consistancy in using a carrier bull. Therefore, I don't see the point in using one. Our non-carrier bull will be sold at the end of this year. Hopefully by then, I will have a few more non-carrier heifers from him. He seems to throw more males than female calves.
Inger
NZ
NZ
Inger, there is another important element in breeding a herd of waist high Dexters - the height of the keeper.
Louisa, as I don't understand a fair proportion of the words in your post I'm a bit wary of replying but when did that ever stop me. I find it very interesting that you can't tell the difference between the 2 types from bone length in the leg, it has seemed to me that this is pretty much the only difference in the more solidly built Dexters. I knew about achondroplastic dwarfs because one type of African dwarf goat was very obviously this type while the other type was a pituitary dwarf but years of cross breeding in the US and here has produced the Pygmy goat which is a verysmall goat which resembles neither very much. Pity Dexters can't be handled the same way but they always seem to just churn out 2 separate types which are usually obvious when they have their flesh on but that you can't tell apart from the skeletons. That seems to go against some long held views.
Sylvia
Louisa, as I don't understand a fair proportion of the words in your post I'm a bit wary of replying but when did that ever stop me. I find it very interesting that you can't tell the difference between the 2 types from bone length in the leg, it has seemed to me that this is pretty much the only difference in the more solidly built Dexters. I knew about achondroplastic dwarfs because one type of African dwarf goat was very obviously this type while the other type was a pituitary dwarf but years of cross breeding in the US and here has produced the Pygmy goat which is a verysmall goat which resembles neither very much. Pity Dexters can't be handled the same way but they always seem to just churn out 2 separate types which are usually obvious when they have their flesh on but that you can't tell apart from the skeletons. That seems to go against some long held views.
Sylvia
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Broomcroft
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Clive, I have a number of cows in my herd that look very similar to the picture you have shown. Though they usually have a straighter underline than that.
Inger, she's 7 months' pregnant. ???
Yes Beryl, she does breed well - excellent mother, very milky but with good beef calves. I'd be quite happy with a herd full of Caenwen's except I'm trying to go 100% red and she's 100% black!
Clive
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Broomcroft
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Talking of reds, here's a photo of my initial little all-red mini-herd...I am selecting red, non-short (but non-tall) and everything else, black, tall or carrier, goes for beef. Thanks to all the help and advice I've gained from this board I have selected not just on what I like the look of, but also all the other factors, breeding ability, parents etc. I have other heifers that look just as good, but their parents don't, so they go for beef as well.
It's not a very good photo. The bull is 24 months and is quite shortish, the heifers are all about 22 months. I'm looking forward to seeing what results in 10 months time!
PS. Just in case you compare them to the fence, it is 5'6" high badger fencing. At last I got a photo on (courtesy of photobucket).
Edited By Broomcroft on 1220282428
It's not a very good photo. The bull is 24 months and is quite shortish, the heifers are all about 22 months. I'm looking forward to seeing what results in 10 months time!
PS. Just in case you compare them to the fence, it is 5'6" high badger fencing. At last I got a photo on (courtesy of photobucket).
Edited By Broomcroft on 1220282428
Clive
Just curious; why is the broomcroft herd going all red? Just for fun or is it something about them you prefer apart from the color? Different temperament? Didn´t you (or was it someone else??) say some time ago that the reds are wild and stubborn as redhaired women or something?
Anna Bergstrom
Sweden
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Broomcroft
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Hi Anna
Since we started we always liked reds. Nothing more than that other than we would also like to have a herd that is fairly consistent in it's looks, not just the colour. My beef herd is a very mixed up lot which sort of takes away a bit of the interest, or the aim for me personally. Fine for beef though.
Somewhere else on this site, Kirk told us how reds are more "flighty" generally and why, and not just cows I think he said, and that if you have a calm red then the animal is genetically calmer than say a calm one in another colour. Personally I haven't spotted any difference in temperament between the colours (yet), so any difference I would think is very small maybe. My wildest by far is a black non-short and the cheekiest is a dun short. I've got a red mare you don't mess with though
Edited By Broomcroft on 1220289021
Since we started we always liked reds. Nothing more than that other than we would also like to have a herd that is fairly consistent in it's looks, not just the colour. My beef herd is a very mixed up lot which sort of takes away a bit of the interest, or the aim for me personally. Fine for beef though.
Somewhere else on this site, Kirk told us how reds are more "flighty" generally and why, and not just cows I think he said, and that if you have a calm red then the animal is genetically calmer than say a calm one in another colour. Personally I haven't spotted any difference in temperament between the colours (yet), so any difference I would think is very small maybe. My wildest by far is a black non-short and the cheekiest is a dun short. I've got a red mare you don't mess with though
Edited By Broomcroft on 1220289021
Clive
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monica waltho
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Broomcroft
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