We are considering de-horning our younger stock. I'd like to know what other Dexter owners think of this and what the best age(s) and method(s) of doing so are.
Thanks
June
De-horning - Should we or shouldn't we de-horn?
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Duncan MacIntyre
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- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
The decision to dehorn or not depends a lot on how you are going to manage your cattle. If they are to be loose housed at any time in pens dehorning becomes much more desirable if not essential because of welfare considerations. Animals which exist perfectly happily outside in a field can be very sore on one another indoors and the horns add to the problem. You might also need to consider whether or not you might have polled stock at any stage - it is not easy to mix horned and hornless stock in pens and a definite no-no for transport.
If you are not trained in dehorning this is essential before trying it yourself. Many people use caustic paste but you will not find many vets witha favourable view of it because of the pain over a prolonged period.
I would go for disbudding at a couple of months old with hot dehorning iron after local anaesthetic - but the technique is important and training necessary. I used to run training courses under the old Agricultural Training Board but have not done so for some years. Courses may be available in your area - your vet may know or may be willing to train you.
If the horns are more than just buds then a guillotine or saw is the best option, some vets and stockmen use cutting wire but it is very easy to leave part round the base which should have been removed. Guillotine makes a very sharp cut and the horn is off quickly but much more prone to bleeding. Personally I prefer a saw and although it takes longer to get the horn off there is much less bleeding and it can generally be controlled with forceps used to catch and twist the arteries. Cautery with heat after the dehorning in my opinion just makes a bigger slower healing wound.
Some view horned cattle as a danger to the handlers - they may be in inexperienced hands or if not well handled. I never felt that I was at any risk including halter training yearlings - you just get used to the horns and make allowances. But if a bull with horns should go for you there is much more danger of pnetrating injuries - I suppose the same goes for a cow with a new calf which gets possessive.
I used to take pride in the horns of the Burnside herd when I only had a few and they were tied in a byre all winter, but now that I have a few more and they are loose in pens in a shed I dehorn everything. Except the polled ones.
Duncan
If you are not trained in dehorning this is essential before trying it yourself. Many people use caustic paste but you will not find many vets witha favourable view of it because of the pain over a prolonged period.
I would go for disbudding at a couple of months old with hot dehorning iron after local anaesthetic - but the technique is important and training necessary. I used to run training courses under the old Agricultural Training Board but have not done so for some years. Courses may be available in your area - your vet may know or may be willing to train you.
If the horns are more than just buds then a guillotine or saw is the best option, some vets and stockmen use cutting wire but it is very easy to leave part round the base which should have been removed. Guillotine makes a very sharp cut and the horn is off quickly but much more prone to bleeding. Personally I prefer a saw and although it takes longer to get the horn off there is much less bleeding and it can generally be controlled with forceps used to catch and twist the arteries. Cautery with heat after the dehorning in my opinion just makes a bigger slower healing wound.
Some view horned cattle as a danger to the handlers - they may be in inexperienced hands or if not well handled. I never felt that I was at any risk including halter training yearlings - you just get used to the horns and make allowances. But if a bull with horns should go for you there is much more danger of pnetrating injuries - I suppose the same goes for a cow with a new calf which gets possessive.
I used to take pride in the horns of the Burnside herd when I only had a few and they were tied in a byre all winter, but now that I have a few more and they are loose in pens in a shed I dehorn everything. Except the polled ones.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
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106-1100209741
Thanks for your advice Duncan it's much appreciated. Your last sentence leads me to another question: I've been looking at two cows with 2004 heifer calves at foot (their first). Both cows have horns but only one of the heifers. Sire of both calves is our horned bull Archie. His other offspring that we are aware of also have horns. Could this be a throwback to a previous generation who were polled or is there another explanation? (The calf was definitely not de-horned.)
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Duncan MacIntyre
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If the calves are 2004 born I presume that they are past the stage where you might not find the horn buds very easily. Normally two horned parents should not produce a polled calf. If you think that one of the calves may be polled I think you should have a parentage check done. This can be done by hair or blood samples and can be done by the same lab as handles the testing for bulldog genes.
If you have read much background stuff on polled Dexters you may know that the origin of polled stock has raised a few contraversial points. Sometimes questions have not been raised when the polled calves first appeared, for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately is is difficult to sort out generations later what has really occurred. So if there is any doubt get tests done now. Could the cow with the polled calf have had access to a polled bull? Dexters are so prepotent that even first crosses can be difficult to spot. Even experienced breeders have been known to register a calf only to find out later that it was a Charolais cross. Prepotent means that they imprint their type on the progeny more than would be expected by chance.
Duncan
If you have read much background stuff on polled Dexters you may know that the origin of polled stock has raised a few contraversial points. Sometimes questions have not been raised when the polled calves first appeared, for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately is is difficult to sort out generations later what has really occurred. So if there is any doubt get tests done now. Could the cow with the polled calf have had access to a polled bull? Dexters are so prepotent that even first crosses can be difficult to spot. Even experienced breeders have been known to register a calf only to find out later that it was a Charolais cross. Prepotent means that they imprint their type on the progeny more than would be expected by chance.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
June
If you use the site search button for 'horns' you will find the previous thread which ran to several pages and got quite heated.
My small herd of Dexters is all horned as I like the traditional look and don't like dehorning, but they run outside all year. I have to agree with Duncan, if you intend to house them during the winter(together) then dehorn.
Peter
If you use the site search button for 'horns' you will find the previous thread which ran to several pages and got quite heated.
My small herd of Dexters is all horned as I like the traditional look and don't like dehorning, but they run outside all year. I have to agree with Duncan, if you intend to house them during the winter(together) then dehorn.
Peter
Peter
www.kahurangi.org
www.kahurangi.org
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106-1100209741
Again thanks for the advice Duncan - I think the calves were born around May last year so presumably the buds would have appeared by now and as far as I know no other bull was near the cows.
Thanks also to you Peter for your input. I haven't yet been through all the posts (which I should have done first) & had no intention of 'stirring things up'. Sorry.
I'm not very clued up on all we can do on here yet but I'm off to try.
Thanks again
June
Thanks also to you Peter for your input. I haven't yet been through all the posts (which I should have done first) & had no intention of 'stirring things up'. Sorry.
I'm not very clued up on all we can do on here yet but I'm off to try.
Thanks again
June
June
When using search remember to set it to 'older' topics.
Bye the way relax - one of the joys of the Board is generally 'stirring'. Throw in a few contentious terms like 'long legged', 'polled mutation', 'upgraded' stock' or even surgical mutilation (dehorning) or mention DEFRA, TB testing, bulldog calves and wait for the feedback!
Good luck
Peter
When using search remember to set it to 'older' topics.
Bye the way relax - one of the joys of the Board is generally 'stirring'. Throw in a few contentious terms like 'long legged', 'polled mutation', 'upgraded' stock' or even surgical mutilation (dehorning) or mention DEFRA, TB testing, bulldog calves and wait for the feedback!
Good luck
Peter
Peter
www.kahurangi.org
www.kahurangi.org
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Mark Bowles
- Site Admin
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- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:03 pm
- Location: Leicestershire England
De horning is an individual choice, but bear in mind that horned Dexters are harder to sell, as are badly dehorned animals. No doubt this statement will attract various comments but its what i have found out through putting peoples cattle on the website.
If you get it done try and use someone who has been recommended. Since we started 7 years ago we have tried all sorts, paste, vets, dehorning experts, but only now found someone who does a brilliant job. We try to dehorn between 3 to 6 weeks.
Mark
If you get it done try and use someone who has been recommended. Since we started 7 years ago we have tried all sorts, paste, vets, dehorning experts, but only now found someone who does a brilliant job. We try to dehorn between 3 to 6 weeks.
Mark
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
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106-1100209741
Thanks for the tip Peter. I've now read the two page discussion you all had last year. So now I have some more questions!
But first - the cow in question only had access to Archie and no other! Does the gene come only from a polled bull or can a polled cow produce a polled calf with a horned bull?
One issue which doesn't seem to have cropped up much (I did use the search facility) except in one of Duncan's replies "there should not be too much pain associated with proper dehorning" (yes I know I should use the 'quote' button but haven't figured out how yet) is pain. Animals seem to be able to tolerate it a lot better than we can or at least they are not as vocal about it so how do we know how much pain we are causing? How far along the horns do their nerves go? Are the nerves as receptive to pain as the animal ages/horns grow as when younger? How long is the 'prolonged' pain when using caustic paste. Are we talking hours, days or even weeks? And can someone recommend a really good book to let me stop asking such basic biology questions?
As to the issue of horned dexters being harder to sell, is this a countrywide thing or more regionalised? Or is it just dependent on the buyer?
But first - the cow in question only had access to Archie and no other! Does the gene come only from a polled bull or can a polled cow produce a polled calf with a horned bull?
One issue which doesn't seem to have cropped up much (I did use the search facility) except in one of Duncan's replies "there should not be too much pain associated with proper dehorning" (yes I know I should use the 'quote' button but haven't figured out how yet) is pain. Animals seem to be able to tolerate it a lot better than we can or at least they are not as vocal about it so how do we know how much pain we are causing? How far along the horns do their nerves go? Are the nerves as receptive to pain as the animal ages/horns grow as when younger? How long is the 'prolonged' pain when using caustic paste. Are we talking hours, days or even weeks? And can someone recommend a really good book to let me stop asking such basic biology questions?
As to the issue of horned dexters being harder to sell, is this a countrywide thing or more regionalised? Or is it just dependent on the buyer?
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
The polled gene can be passed on equally from male or female. If one parent of the pair is carrying one polled gene and the other is carrying two horned genes, polled/horned x horned/horned, the different possibilities for calves are one polled/horned and 3 horned/horned. If one parent is carrying polled/polled, and the other horned/horned, the offspring will be 50% pplled and 50% horned, each having got one polled gene and one horned gene. Polling is generally dominant so one gene is enough to show polled.
So your polled calf may have arisen because one parent has been polled but not recognised as such. If you do not want to name the cow and bull on line email me at duncan.macintyre@btopenworld.com and I will look back the herd books and see what is in the background. I assume both parents are registered.
On the pain front, nerves go as far up the horn as blood does,roughly speaking, so if you try to cut tips of horns and hit blood you are causing pain.In young cattle this goes almost to the tip. In older cows it varies but a good bit of the tip will be clear - so if a horn is growing round and touching the face an inch or two can be sawn off without causing pain. That does not necessarily mean the cow will not object of course.
Pain from having caustic paste put on will last as long as the paste is there and then a bit less whilst the damage heals. There is not normally any anaesthetic given.
Disbudding with a hot iron requires the use of local anaesthetic which should stop any pain during the actual cautery and for an hour or two after. Usually this is only done in very small calves so the area burnt is small and should heal fairly quickly.
If older calves or stirks are dehorned using a guillotine or saw a local anesthetic is required and again stops pain during the operation. Pain after the operation will be on a decreasing basis as the wound heals and I prefer to use a saw, which needs less done after horn removal to stop bleeding than guillotine. Some people burn the area to stop all ooze of blood but I prefer to saw and leave as the wound heals quicker. It does look more bloody and brutal at the time but it is better afterwards than having the size of the wound increased by burning.
Another method is to use cutting wire pulled back and forward round the base of the horn but I dislike this as it is very difficult to remove enough and there is often patchy regrowth.
I have also encountered the use of rubber bands to take tips off horns and this is a definite no no as it slowly bites into the living horn causing pain over a prolonged period often many weeks before the horn eventually drops off, leaving a base which will keep growing the rest of the animals life.
Duncan
So your polled calf may have arisen because one parent has been polled but not recognised as such. If you do not want to name the cow and bull on line email me at duncan.macintyre@btopenworld.com and I will look back the herd books and see what is in the background. I assume both parents are registered.
On the pain front, nerves go as far up the horn as blood does,roughly speaking, so if you try to cut tips of horns and hit blood you are causing pain.In young cattle this goes almost to the tip. In older cows it varies but a good bit of the tip will be clear - so if a horn is growing round and touching the face an inch or two can be sawn off without causing pain. That does not necessarily mean the cow will not object of course.
Pain from having caustic paste put on will last as long as the paste is there and then a bit less whilst the damage heals. There is not normally any anaesthetic given.
Disbudding with a hot iron requires the use of local anaesthetic which should stop any pain during the actual cautery and for an hour or two after. Usually this is only done in very small calves so the area burnt is small and should heal fairly quickly.
If older calves or stirks are dehorned using a guillotine or saw a local anesthetic is required and again stops pain during the operation. Pain after the operation will be on a decreasing basis as the wound heals and I prefer to use a saw, which needs less done after horn removal to stop bleeding than guillotine. Some people burn the area to stop all ooze of blood but I prefer to saw and leave as the wound heals quicker. It does look more bloody and brutal at the time but it is better afterwards than having the size of the wound increased by burning.
Another method is to use cutting wire pulled back and forward round the base of the horn but I dislike this as it is very difficult to remove enough and there is often patchy regrowth.
I have also encountered the use of rubber bands to take tips off horns and this is a definite no no as it slowly bites into the living horn causing pain over a prolonged period often many weeks before the horn eventually drops off, leaving a base which will keep growing the rest of the animals life.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
June
looking at Duncan's response you will see why some of us prefer horned cattle, albeit at the expense of more caution when housing them etc.
On the pricing front, there will always be a market for horned (and polled) cattle. Other than the larger beef breeders, most people are targeting some specialist segment of the Dexter market, whether it is horned/polled, leg length or colour - if for example I wanted a horned short or medium legged dun heifer (as I do) forget it as their are none for sale.
Peter
looking at Duncan's response you will see why some of us prefer horned cattle, albeit at the expense of more caution when housing them etc.
On the pricing front, there will always be a market for horned (and polled) cattle. Other than the larger beef breeders, most people are targeting some specialist segment of the Dexter market, whether it is horned/polled, leg length or colour - if for example I wanted a horned short or medium legged dun heifer (as I do) forget it as their are none for sale.
Peter
Peter
www.kahurangi.org
www.kahurangi.org
Hi,
Anyone care to air their views on the merits or otherwise of Gas de-horners or 'disbudders'. A long-term commercial store calf producer I talked to recently reckons these are very efficient, especially the small replaceable gas cylinder insert types, used at around 10 - 14 days. (on Limousines)
Morton.
Anyone care to air their views on the merits or otherwise of Gas de-horners or 'disbudders'. A long-term commercial store calf producer I talked to recently reckons these are very efficient, especially the small replaceable gas cylinder insert types, used at around 10 - 14 days. (on Limousines)
Morton.
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106-1100209741
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
I've just had a TB test done. As many will know, this involves 2 vets visits during which they are usually happy to do other work (You pay for this, but save the attendance fee).
I had some calves de-horned on the 1st visit and 2 heifers + a young bull on the second.
My conclusions is - decide whether you are going to have a horned or unhorned herd, and sort them out whilst they are young! Dehorning pregnant cows is not the best way to do it! Although the vet did a good job.
BUT in my view we certainly should NOT be discouraging polled animals.
I had some calves de-horned on the 1st visit and 2 heifers + a young bull on the second.
My conclusions is - decide whether you are going to have a horned or unhorned herd, and sort them out whilst they are young! Dehorning pregnant cows is not the best way to do it! Although the vet did a good job.
BUT in my view we certainly should NOT be discouraging polled animals.
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm