Halter training for Melton - Newsletter Statement

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:52 pm

I also heartily endorse Saffy's eminently sensible suggestion.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:32 pm

I also endorse Saffy's idea or something very much like it. I would also add that if other sales that are used currently, like Holesworthy or wherever, were advertised more as where to buy and sell your Dexters, they too would improve and be more local. One central place only is a long way to go for a lot of people. There are 25,000 Dexters in the UK, if marketed properly, and only held say once a year, maybe people would use the sale and plan and look forward to them. BUT...they've got to know about them first. And yes, one central National Sale for everyone.

On the question of judging by visual inspection, we showed our Lleyn sheep at the West Mids Show (and I won a first prize for the best wool, no money though!) a few weeks ago and the main judge was a professional shepherd who had a 3000 ewe flock. The commentator asked him how he was going to select the best and he said "Well, if they had a sheet of paper in front of them with the figures on I would use those because you can't tell just by looking, but I'll do my best".

Edited By Broomcroft on 1216305218

sedgefen · Post by **sedgefen** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:36 pm

How about the new Rugby Farmers Market at Stoneleigh? This is a lovely new market in a central position, easy to get at and within reach of a number of Dexter keepers in the midlands. It would only need a few of these people to take cattle to this market for word to get round. After all ther are often Dexter cattle forward in Thrapston market, which I believe is much smaller.
Lottie.

Post by **Mark Bowles** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:00 pm

The sale at Melton covers 10 cattle breed societies and 24 sheep societies.
The cattle "rules" are arrived at by the Breeds Steering committee, not the DCS. The DCS only enforces the inspections.
To have a stand alone DCS sale would be very interesting but it would be exactly that,stand alone. At Melton, or Stoneleigh as was in the past, vendors from all the breeds congregate and some dexter sales i am sure may have come from people who were intially there to buy another breed, or even some other sheep.
So lets have a DCS sale, where would it be to satisfy all?
I am open to all suggestions, honest!

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:31 pm

The National Show and Sale which has been at Melton for the last few years grew out of what was originally the RBST National Show and Sale at Stoneliegh. This began in the early 1970's, and was primarily an exchange point for genetics on the hoof for rare breed cattle, sheep, pigs and sometimes horses. I don't think there was originally any form of inspection, but the sale quickly became a dumping ground for all sorts of not very good specimens and an inspection system was begun. I first took a Dexter there in 1988, and the system was just two inspectors looking at things as they arrived and passing or failing. At that time the Dexter breed was beginning to emerge as a minority breed instead of a rare breed and the DCS handled their own inspections. Sheep under the Combined Flock Book umbrella were using a card grading system, and in the late 80's and early 90's the DCS tried a similar system, but had five grades and a failure grade. Having taken very similar heifers there several year running I was strongly of the opinion that the grading was so inconsistant as to be detrimental, certainly very discouraging to vendors to have good grades one year and poor the next for similar cattle, and I joined in lobbying for a simpler system, which is basically what we have today. One year I was asked to accompany the Inspectors in a trainee capacity and the next thing I was in at the deep end doing it on my own, as much a veterinary inspection for faults as a breed inspector.

For a National Show and Sale as opposed to a local market I think some sort of quality assurance from the breed society is a good thing, and is something done by many other breed societies in both sheep and cattle. They may not inspect at all their sales, but the main ones usually have inspection. For inspection and even close looking by buyers, it is essential that animals are approachable and handleable - so they may as well be haltered.

To have a true National Show and Sale it is essential that there are buyers and sellers from all over the British Isles. As soon as we stop inspection, stop haltering and handling conditions, and allow an "anything goes" attitude, all that will happen is that sellers within travelling distance will have the advantage of selling not very special stock at the so-called National Show and Sale. Those from further afield will not be able to go, because it makes no sense whatsoever to take something to a sale so far away that the cost of transport and accommodation for the seller whilst there far outweigh the likely sale price. The price of animals at the sale will plummet, and we have lost our national shop window.

By all means lets encourage well identified and publicised local sales in as many areas of the country as will support them, but please leave the National Show and Sale as something special. It may not be perfect, but a lot of people over a lot of years have tried very hard to make it what it is.

Duncan

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:50 pm

But why can't you have both like Saffy says? Our sheep society does just that. It's like the Melton Show/Sale but with just general breeding stock stock as well (afterwards). Prices range from 15000gns for a tup and £35 for poor quality ewes, literally in the same sale on the same day (different sections). It doesn't cause a problem; it does the reverse and draws in everyone not just a particular type of breeder. To split up those sales would ruin them.

They may inspect the show animals, but the rest, as long as they are pedigree, are in the sale. The buyers are left to decide on the stock themselves.

Stoneleigh sounds good. Shrewsbury would be better because it's only 10 miles from me.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1216320638

justmalc · Post by **justmalc** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:31 pm

Hi All,

There really is no problem. Melton is quite central and they are completely happy to sell both halter trained and un-trained stock. The move to make the Dexter more commercial means that some of the biggest potential buyers and sellers have no interest in halter training their animals.

Melton have two rings and have said that a parallel sale of un-haltered animals could take place in the second ring or could follow on from the sale of animals being led into the ring. There appears to be some confusion this year but why don't we look ahead to including a sale of un-haltered animals next year.

I think that the move towards commercial pedigree beef herds separates us from many of the other cattle breeds represented and we need to recognise this element of our society without detracting from the existing element of the Melton rare breeds sale. It would present a good chance for all elements of the society to get together socially. There is nothing wrong with halter trained or un-trained Dexters and both have their place so why exclude any animal on that basis? Combine the two, maximise buyers and sellers and have a good get together. Sounds simple.

Regards,

Malcolm.

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:16 am

How right you are Malcolm, nobody is criticising the historic management of the breed sale but today we need to move forward into the 21st century. It is no longer the case that all the membership is show orientated. There are those with large beef herds aiming for the niche beef market and producing a level high quality stock; perhaps a 100 head plus managed by one person. They cannot possibly halter train them; the labour bill would be a recipe for bankruptcy. At the other end of the scale there is the smallholder aiming to feed the family on good home produce, having spent most of his limited spare time tending his stock, aims for a small amount of quality time enjoying his animals; and has no desire to spend it wrestling with them on the end of a rope, against the possible future need to halter them in the sale ring.
Looking at a column of stock ads in the local paper, it is strewn with references to EBV’s, FABBL, breed recorded. All the Dexter will offer is halter broken, or worse the mistaken claim of higher than average ratio of carrier conception. Very often these days the Dexter outnumbers all other breeds in numbers forward at the agricultural show, this should not be considered a matter of pride but rather a question mark. The old fashioned show is on its way out. As Clive has pointed out, today’s experienced stockman is looking for modern criteria in judging, which includes performance.

ann · Post by **ann** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:49 pm

Just logged on and thought I would put my two pence worth in. When I first came into dexters I was horrified with the way most dexters walked and this is still a problem with many of the present cattle, I personally would never buy an animal that did not walk correctly and if you buy privately you can access this by watching the animal walk in the field, however as Melton Mowbray tends to fill the ring with shavings and this can disguise faults, unless you can see the animal walk before it goes into the sale ring you are in my opinion buying blind, which is something if you are interested in breeding sound cattle is not an option IMHO. Needless to say I have seen cattle pass the inspection that I would have put in the food chain so its still a good idea to go the day before if you see anything you like get the owners to walk them out for you. thats what I did when I brought animals at sales and the sellars although rather surprised by my request where happy to oblige.

sedgefen · Post by **sedgefen** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:38 pm

Why all the discussion about halter training or not for Melton sale? The Schedule states quite clearly on page 4 under general conditions, " Cattle will be halter tied and led into the ring." This is for all breeds, not just for Dexters. If you dont want to go to a sale where the cattle are haltered, then go to an ordinary cattle market.

Lottie

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:40 pm

Try selling Dexters in an ordinary cattle market, it is completely the wrong venue for Dexters, it is not only bad for the seller it is a very bad advert for the breed, that is why it is imperative for our Society to sponsor a dedicated sale for all its breeders and not a selected few.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:52 pm

Try taking your pedigree, registered Dexter cattle to an ordinary cattle market, Lottie, then you'll find out why people want Melton to be more inclusive.

justmalc · Post by **justmalc** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:52 pm

Lottie,

As far as I know nobody is questioning what the schedule says. What we are questioning is whether this reflects the current and developing needs of the Dexter breed. Clearly it does not as some members want to sell haltered and some want to sell un-haltered animals. Melton are completely happy to accept un-haltered animals and would do so this year.

However, realistically I think it is better simply to add on a section at the end of the sale next year for un-haltered animals then everyone gets a choice - both sellers and buyers. Simple really.
Regards,

Malcolm.

monica waltho · Post by **monica waltho** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:51 pm

Could Melton cope with the extra vehicles this would bring as there is always a struggle to find somewhere to park in my experience so do we look for somewhere else to have our own sale? This could exclude some customers as Mark said previously who dont come to buy Dexters but are perhaps selling sheep or poultry etc come to look round the cattle then decide this is a breed they may like. Do we have any inspections for these animals ie rejected if in poor condition,bad feet, or bad temperament etc. I think good quality unhaltered animals will sell but if you get high numbers I think alot could go home unsold or you will get just as low as in a normal market.
Perhaps we need to do some sort of questionaire to see what suppport there is for a National Dexter Sale and what number of entries would be, but people need to be committed to supporting this sale as it no use saying you want a sale then selling them off privately.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:17 am

It sounds to me, and only having been once, that the Melton rare breed sale is not the sale for general Dexters. I could be wrong. Also, for general cattle sales, are there that many people going to travel far? So it would become a midlands sale or not be supported.

I think having key sales around the country, maybe say 5 of them on a recognised day in the year and market them properly. That could just mean taking what's already there, York, Holesworthy, and doing nothing more than just advertising them amongst Dexter breeders properly, and then adding a few on around the country if there is a local need.

Going back to our sheep society, in fact we are in two and they both do the same, they email everyone about forthcoming sales as well as by post (but not so often). That helps people to recognise these sales as official and they get good support. Each sale covers a large area. There is one of the sales (carlisle I think) that is regarded as the main one and people with special stock will travel the length and breadth of the country for that one. That's where you'll find your 15000gn tups. At the other sales, tups could reach 3000gns but not usually more and generally around 500-800.

And these societies have the sales as a big sales section (and results/prices achieved) on their websites. If you want it to work it's all about marketing and getting the buyers and sellers there. Yes, ask the members would be a good idea and get them involved.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1216538810