Mark, I am one among many who bless you for the wonderful message board, it has given many immense pleasure, and has proved a grand medium to help newcomers, there can be few of us who haven’t learnt something fresh from it. The recent fiasco is unfortunate, but we should use the board to continue to discuss rationally. The following ‘Farmer’s Advice’ was given to me by an Australian and contains a lot of common sense:
*Your fences need to be horse-high, pig-tight and bull-strong.
* Keep skunks and bankers and lawyers at a distance.
* Life is simpler when you plow around the stump.
* A bumble bee is considerably faster than a John Deere tractor.
* Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled.
* Meanness don't jes' happen overnight.
* Forgive your enemies. It messes up their heads.
* Do not corner something that you know is meaner than you.
* It don't take a very big person to carry a grudge.
* You cannot unsay a cruel word.
* Every path has a few puddles.
* When you wallow with pigs, expect to get dirty.
* The best sermons are lived, not preached.
* Most of the stuff people worry about ain't never gonna happen anyway.
* Don't judge folks by their relatives.
* Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.
* Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll enjoy it a second time.
* Don't interfere with somethin' that ain't botherin' you none.
* Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
* If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin'.
* Sometimes you get, and sometimes you get got.
* The biggest troublemaker you'll probably ever have to deal with, watches you from the mirror every mornin'.
* Always drink upstream from the herd.
* Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
* Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin' it back in.
* If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around.
* Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
Society EGM - Important info
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
This is possibly the most depressing topic I have ever had the misfortune to read. After months of work we still have a disfunctional Society. There is no way forward when the great majority want one thing and a substantial minority won't allow it. We shall probably end up as split as our transatlantic cousins.
Has anybody got a sensible suggextion as to where we go from here? I do not subscribe to fatuous conspiracy theories. For a variety of reasons, not all of them clear or admitted the last Council resigned en masse. Exactly the same problems face any new council and if the last one couldn't hack it who is to say that any new one could! Not forgetting that most active (as in real farmers/smallholders) members are already reluctant to stand for election in the first place. I do not think that I want to continue membership of a Society so fractured.
Isn't fortunate that Dexters have a great deal more sense than their owners.
Well said and precisely how I feel. Nice cows, Britain's best beef (had to get that in :;):), shame about some people. My wife and I are seriously considering changing our herd because we've both had our fill of the politics and we really mean it. We do beef and want cattle registered, end of story. We want a smooth running society that does just that. We didn't have one, the BS was leaving with no replacement, no contracts, etc, etc, and that has been fixed and it is functioning well with the new BS on board. If you want to keep the society functioning properly, a change in the rules is essential at some stage. The vote at the EGM proves that it is only a matter of time, so I take it as a win for what is just simple commonsense, even if you don't agree with all the detail, no-one ever will.
Funnily enough, the clause that causes me most problems, and it's only a few words, isn't the clause that the Charity Commission approved. Someone has changed it before it was printed.
Apart from worming 500 sheep before the rain started then next day, I was calving whilst the EGM was under way, so I feel guilty as well, but unavoidable. I had a red calf to a dun cow which for some reason I thought was not possible but it obviously is!
Clive
We would like to thank the steering committee for their immense efforts over the last few months and also apologise for not being at the EGM to support them. It is a shame that an opportunity for progress has been temporarily lost. The DCS needs to progress and put the past behind it. It must never again be allowed to be guided by a dictatorship of a minority who has the strength and control over others to manipulate the Breed. The Steering Committee’s proposals would have gone a long way to prevent this happening. We can sympathise with Clive saying that he is considering changing Breed. We too felt the need a few years back when politics spoilt Dexters for us, consequently our Dexters are being replaced with Beef Shorthorns. The DCS should not be pushing breeders away from Dexters! The Shorthorn Society makes Breeders feel welcome!
Andy and Sherry Kindred – Brambledel Dexters, Melton Mowbray.
Andy and Sherry Kindred – Brambledel Dexters, Melton Mowbray.
Only one person has admitted voting against on this board and this needs to be considered calmly.
The question that I suspect everyone would like an answer to is why 'justmalc', having such relevant experience to offer in his opinion, did not offer to join and advise the steering group. I don't know any of the group personally but they stepped in at a time when they were desperately needed and have, I am absolutely certain, worked very hard for the good of DCS. If justmalc's experience was so relevant I am certain they would have welcomed it.
As it is disclosing how appropriately qualified one is, not to help but to disrupt, is not the way to win friends and influence people, as has been amply shown on this site.
Arrogance goes down very badly anywhere but in particular in the farming context. Which brings me to another point. My husband, before he retired, worked for a long time for central government in a position which gave him the final say (in almost all cases) in the plans of individuals, businesses, local authorities and regions. I have never known him or others doing this work show any arrogance over the fact that they have, though their work, such significant powers. He, too, worked partly from home and he certainly did not have time to look after our 120 acre farm or our herd of Dexters and other animals although he welcomed the chance to walk round and see them when he could. I am puzzled about how you play a significant part on your family's 1100 acre farm and hold down such an important job. Are you as 'hands on' on the farm as you claim? Cattle must be checked every day and twice daily if in the barn. Can you explain, please.
This has been a very bad business and a severe disappointment to everyone hoping for a more stable DCS. Dexters are for the most part such placid and good natured animals, I support the view already expressed that owners would do well to behave more like them.
The question that I suspect everyone would like an answer to is why 'justmalc', having such relevant experience to offer in his opinion, did not offer to join and advise the steering group. I don't know any of the group personally but they stepped in at a time when they were desperately needed and have, I am absolutely certain, worked very hard for the good of DCS. If justmalc's experience was so relevant I am certain they would have welcomed it.
As it is disclosing how appropriately qualified one is, not to help but to disrupt, is not the way to win friends and influence people, as has been amply shown on this site.
Arrogance goes down very badly anywhere but in particular in the farming context. Which brings me to another point. My husband, before he retired, worked for a long time for central government in a position which gave him the final say (in almost all cases) in the plans of individuals, businesses, local authorities and regions. I have never known him or others doing this work show any arrogance over the fact that they have, though their work, such significant powers. He, too, worked partly from home and he certainly did not have time to look after our 120 acre farm or our herd of Dexters and other animals although he welcomed the chance to walk round and see them when he could. I am puzzled about how you play a significant part on your family's 1100 acre farm and hold down such an important job. Are you as 'hands on' on the farm as you claim? Cattle must be checked every day and twice daily if in the barn. Can you explain, please.
This has been a very bad business and a severe disappointment to everyone hoping for a more stable DCS. Dexters are for the most part such placid and good natured animals, I support the view already expressed that owners would do well to behave more like them.
We would also like to thank the Steering Committee for all the time and effort they have put in to bring the Society up to date.We were at the meeting and also feel that most of the people who voted against the amendments were in fact voting against the Steering Committee. Just to make a point, wasn"t it two members of the previous council who proposed and seconded the whole councils resignation. We were at that meeting, and if I remember correctly, this happened before the appointment of the Steering Committee. Lottie James, sedgefen dexters.
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Rutherford
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:08 am
Please let the Dexters take priority, it would be a shame if these very deserving animals lost the support of some of the best members we have ever had, due to a vociferous minority. I must admit the recent defeat left me very depressed yesterday, but you are surely not going to bow out without a backward glance at those charming little cattle that have so much more to offer, with your help they can really go a very long way.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
Beryl (Woodmagic)
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Rutherford
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:08 am
Clive having just read your last again, the red calf is unusual but not impossible, the parents probably both carry all three colours, it can happen, I bred a bull who did so, unfortunately I didn’t learn it, till he had left me. Usually, the red to dun gives black.
You were not alone in being quite unable to attend the meeting, although undoubtedly in some cases it was lethargy. In your case I think it incredible that you have managed so generously to find time for all the work you have done on the steering committee. As you so rightly said, we need either proxy or postal voting, then all the working members, whose voice certainly needs to be represented, will have a fair chance to have their say.
Beryl (Wooodmagic)
You were not alone in being quite unable to attend the meeting, although undoubtedly in some cases it was lethargy. In your case I think it incredible that you have managed so generously to find time for all the work you have done on the steering committee. As you so rightly said, we need either proxy or postal voting, then all the working members, whose voice certainly needs to be represented, will have a fair chance to have their say.
Beryl (Wooodmagic)
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welshdexterboy
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:11 pm
- Location: Pembrokeshire
I to regret not going now after saying I would but work prevented it being so. I also can't believe that Malcolm, with all his vast knowledge and experience didn't offer a few words of advice to the steering committee so avoiding the disruption and disarray we have now. But to through out the baby with bath water would not be good so please don't change breeds Clive but stick it out here. Can this subject be brought up at the AGM as a proposal or amendment and then be voted on? Perhaps you will let me know the technical side of it Malcolm as to whether it is or not. Not being churlish but looking for correct advice.
Rob H
Rob H
Rob H
Snipesbay 32350
Pembs
Snipesbay 32350
Pembs
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Louisa Gidney
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:00 am
- Contact:
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
Beryl, after all, my red calf belongs to a red cow and the dun cow had knicked it. It's just taken me two hours to get them separated and the red cow still doesn't realise it's hers. They're are in a little space to themselves so fingers crossed. I've had 10 red calves in a fortnight!
Edited By Broomcroft on 1211807259
Edited By Broomcroft on 1211807259
Clive
I have just returned from the EGM (for some of us travel is longer and slower than others!) and Joan and I are glad we took the trouble to attend. I am just catching up on the postings and have many comments which I may or may not make in the future. However I feel one must be made now.
Justmalc has had the ill-manners and possibly poor judgement to refer to an 'expert' as 'a fool'. While he rejoices in his vistory, Justmalc should be paying homage to this 'fool' as it was only due to him that the proposal was rejected.
The DCS constitution states that motions are carried by a simple majority, ie 50% plus one. Neil Adams, the expert, insisted that by Company Law a majority of 75% was required. Despite being vigorously challenged prior to the meeting by myself and others Neill stuck to his opinion and the Steering Committee abided by his instruction - as it turned out to their own disadvantage.
At any other General Meeting of the Society in its history this resolution would have been carried with a resounding majority. For the Steering Committee therefore this is a moral victory. Despite some postings on this site I believe the Dexter Soceity continues to be a democratic organisation and the job now is to convert a 70% majority into a 75% one by reasoned argument and not by abuse.
I'll post more comments later if I feel they will be constructive. Unlike Clive I was able to have a break as my remaining animals had all calved but I must now go and see if they are still at home and carry on with the rest of my farm work.
Ian Simpson
I tried to post this earlier but my Broadband link crashed so it may appear twice.
Ian
Justmalc has had the ill-manners and possibly poor judgement to refer to an 'expert' as 'a fool'. While he rejoices in his vistory, Justmalc should be paying homage to this 'fool' as it was only due to him that the proposal was rejected.
The DCS constitution states that motions are carried by a simple majority, ie 50% plus one. Neil Adams, the expert, insisted that by Company Law a majority of 75% was required. Despite being vigorously challenged prior to the meeting by myself and others Neill stuck to his opinion and the Steering Committee abided by his instruction - as it turned out to their own disadvantage.
At any other General Meeting of the Society in its history this resolution would have been carried with a resounding majority. For the Steering Committee therefore this is a moral victory. Despite some postings on this site I believe the Dexter Soceity continues to be a democratic organisation and the job now is to convert a 70% majority into a 75% one by reasoned argument and not by abuse.
I'll post more comments later if I feel they will be constructive. Unlike Clive I was able to have a break as my remaining animals had all calved but I must now go and see if they are still at home and carry on with the rest of my farm work.
Ian Simpson
I tried to post this earlier but my Broadband link crashed so it may appear twice.
Ian
Joan and Ian Simpson
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
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Rutherford
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:08 am
just want to add some of my own personal thoughts to those posted by Ian on the proceedings at the EGM on Saturday.
First of all I enjoyed meeting up with folk I have known for a long time and putting faces to others that were just names to me until Saturday.
I am apalled at the negative behaviour of a few attending the meeting and also of some making comments through this discussion board.
I will not get into all the legalities of the meeting but just want to express my annoyance that commonsense stuff was ignored.
Among many things I have done through paid and voluntary work I have been Minute Secretary to School Boards of Governors and to other organisations over many years and learned early on that one records the DECISIONS made by the body not the 'lengthy discussion' that led up to the decision. (This point was made by someone else at the EGM.)
I was once asked to amend minutes of a meeting to record what a particular member had said during discussion - even though most of the other members had said the same thing. That was his right and surely if someone wants credited with a part of the discussion - however trivial - then that can be done as an amendment before minutes are approved and signed. (Minute taker's notes can be held and checked if necessary for details of 'the lengthy discussion' leading up to a decision.
I was disappointed that Di's very sensible suggestion that the proposal be accepted and visited again at the AGM was ignored by those unhappy with some points. It was obvious that most people attending were in agreement with most of the points. Acceptance of the proposal would have let the Society go forward in a positive frame of mind while still leaving it open for members to call for further amendments to the Constitution at a later date.
Throughout all the fuss it was obvious that the interests of the actual Dexter cattle was secondary to the interests of some individuals.
Many thanks to the Sterring Group for their VOLUNTARY work and commitment over this difficult time.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
The slices of cake provided at lunch were gorgeous. Thanks to whoever supplied them.
Joan Simpson
First of all I enjoyed meeting up with folk I have known for a long time and putting faces to others that were just names to me until Saturday.
I am apalled at the negative behaviour of a few attending the meeting and also of some making comments through this discussion board.
I will not get into all the legalities of the meeting but just want to express my annoyance that commonsense stuff was ignored.
Among many things I have done through paid and voluntary work I have been Minute Secretary to School Boards of Governors and to other organisations over many years and learned early on that one records the DECISIONS made by the body not the 'lengthy discussion' that led up to the decision. (This point was made by someone else at the EGM.)
I was once asked to amend minutes of a meeting to record what a particular member had said during discussion - even though most of the other members had said the same thing. That was his right and surely if someone wants credited with a part of the discussion - however trivial - then that can be done as an amendment before minutes are approved and signed. (Minute taker's notes can be held and checked if necessary for details of 'the lengthy discussion' leading up to a decision.
I was disappointed that Di's very sensible suggestion that the proposal be accepted and visited again at the AGM was ignored by those unhappy with some points. It was obvious that most people attending were in agreement with most of the points. Acceptance of the proposal would have let the Society go forward in a positive frame of mind while still leaving it open for members to call for further amendments to the Constitution at a later date.
Throughout all the fuss it was obvious that the interests of the actual Dexter cattle was secondary to the interests of some individuals.
Many thanks to the Sterring Group for their VOLUNTARY work and commitment over this difficult time.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
The slices of cake provided at lunch were gorgeous. Thanks to whoever supplied them.
Joan Simpson
Joan and Ian Simpson
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
Hi folks,
sorry for the delay in replying to the points raised - we have been to the Sea Life Centre in Birmingham today excellent, I really recommend it, our two year old loved it
I need to respond to a few of you individually but also have some general points to clarify.
CLIVE
Having had tim to reflect on the M6 I believe my response to your earlier query (would I have opposed the amendments whether they had been made by an elected council or the steering group) was inaccurate. If the changes had been proposed by an elected council I would have accepted that the council members carried with them the mandate and the authority of those electing them and I would have been less inclined to challenge them. If I had specific concerns I would have raised them over the 'phone with a council member. My disquiet with the steering group's appointment is well known. Right or wrong, like it or not, it is my opinion. This being the case I was more inclined to look critically at the amendments - and to challenge them because the steering group have no electoral mandate.
This led to 3 concerns
1. The use of proxy votes - postal votes would be far more inclusive and would not rely on identifying a member attending the meeting to implement your vote.
2. The proposal to deny members access to the council minutes. It was this advice which I referred to as foolish. I believe this to be the case because if I am electing representatives I want clear visability on the debates and the decisions being made on my behalf. The steering group's advisor advised against this - poor advice I feel. Transparency of the decision making process exercised by elected representatives is good corporate governance. (Martin, you may want to take notes here.)
3. The number and composition of council members causes me and others disquiet and this should have been discussed more openly. (More good governance there Martin, did you spot that one?)
This being the case, when a new council is elected, whether or not that contains all of the steering group, I will accept the new constitution provided I am comfortable that all necessary points have been discussed.
MARTIN
I didn't offer advice to the steering group because, as I have always made clear, I do not recognise that a valid process was used in the establishment of the steering group. Secondly. like it or not, the fact remains that at present the steering group has no mandate from members. Get elected and, as explained above, I will support the elected council's decisions.
Mrs Rutherford
The reason I didn't speak up at the EGM is simple. The amendments had to be accepted or rejected in their entirety. No changes could be made to the draft submitted by the steering group. I believe that opinions were entrenched before the meeting and that debate wasn't going to change any minds. Opposition existed and was expressed to all my concerns above and I had nothing to add.
Incidentally, it was interesting to note that some ex council members voted for the amendment and some against. Equally, some members with very close connections to the steering group voted against.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Sorry, I can't be bothered.
Felicity.
No, I will not be standing for election. Sorry to disappoint everyone. Sad to say I do know a lot about corporate governance but I don't believe the DCS has extensive governance issues. The constitution will be amended in time and I don't have the experience necessary of a council member.
SYLVIA
Off at a demented tangent as ever although I do resent your implied criticism of my animal husbandry. I am fortunate in having the help of my brothers in looking after my Dexters. Having said that my working day typically starts at 5.30am and I see all my cattle every day. If your husband was unable to get everything done you needed doing I can only suggest he should have got out of bed earlier. I have to say, in his position, I would have been out of there like a bullet out of a gun.
Malcolm.
sorry for the delay in replying to the points raised - we have been to the Sea Life Centre in Birmingham today excellent, I really recommend it, our two year old loved it
I need to respond to a few of you individually but also have some general points to clarify.
CLIVE
Having had tim to reflect on the M6 I believe my response to your earlier query (would I have opposed the amendments whether they had been made by an elected council or the steering group) was inaccurate. If the changes had been proposed by an elected council I would have accepted that the council members carried with them the mandate and the authority of those electing them and I would have been less inclined to challenge them. If I had specific concerns I would have raised them over the 'phone with a council member. My disquiet with the steering group's appointment is well known. Right or wrong, like it or not, it is my opinion. This being the case I was more inclined to look critically at the amendments - and to challenge them because the steering group have no electoral mandate.
This led to 3 concerns
1. The use of proxy votes - postal votes would be far more inclusive and would not rely on identifying a member attending the meeting to implement your vote.
2. The proposal to deny members access to the council minutes. It was this advice which I referred to as foolish. I believe this to be the case because if I am electing representatives I want clear visability on the debates and the decisions being made on my behalf. The steering group's advisor advised against this - poor advice I feel. Transparency of the decision making process exercised by elected representatives is good corporate governance. (Martin, you may want to take notes here.)
3. The number and composition of council members causes me and others disquiet and this should have been discussed more openly. (More good governance there Martin, did you spot that one?)
This being the case, when a new council is elected, whether or not that contains all of the steering group, I will accept the new constitution provided I am comfortable that all necessary points have been discussed.
MARTIN
I didn't offer advice to the steering group because, as I have always made clear, I do not recognise that a valid process was used in the establishment of the steering group. Secondly. like it or not, the fact remains that at present the steering group has no mandate from members. Get elected and, as explained above, I will support the elected council's decisions.
Mrs Rutherford
The reason I didn't speak up at the EGM is simple. The amendments had to be accepted or rejected in their entirety. No changes could be made to the draft submitted by the steering group. I believe that opinions were entrenched before the meeting and that debate wasn't going to change any minds. Opposition existed and was expressed to all my concerns above and I had nothing to add.
Incidentally, it was interesting to note that some ex council members voted for the amendment and some against. Equally, some members with very close connections to the steering group voted against.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Sorry, I can't be bothered.
Felicity.
No, I will not be standing for election. Sorry to disappoint everyone. Sad to say I do know a lot about corporate governance but I don't believe the DCS has extensive governance issues. The constitution will be amended in time and I don't have the experience necessary of a council member.
SYLVIA
Off at a demented tangent as ever although I do resent your implied criticism of my animal husbandry. I am fortunate in having the help of my brothers in looking after my Dexters. Having said that my working day typically starts at 5.30am and I see all my cattle every day. If your husband was unable to get everything done you needed doing I can only suggest he should have got out of bed earlier. I have to say, in his position, I would have been out of there like a bullet out of a gun.
Malcolm.
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natmadaboutdexters
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:49 pm
- Location: Brackley
I believe that the steering committee have worked tirelessly during the last few months to try and bring the DCS upto date and move it forward. If I was one of them now I would feel like all my hard work had been thrown back in my face. Perhaps those that voted against the new constitution are only thinking of their own interests instead of the good of the society. Lets not forget that the reason this has come about is because of the Council members behaviour in the past. You can't stop change and ultimately change will happen. I can only hope it is for the good.
Natasha Lewis
Natasha Lewis