Selling Dexters

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:37 pm

Starting this as a separate thread is the result of points from various other topics, particularly those relating to the National Show and Sale.

Louisa says "While I'm having a rant, I may as well put in a counter argument to Duncan's rather elitist view of the National Show & Sale. When I joined RBST in the dim & distant past, I understood the whole ethos was to faciltate the national exchange of bloodlines as part of the overall conservation exercise. I hope I'm not the only one to expect to find affordable stock at a national sale, rather than highly priced show animals from a clique of breeders."

I too take the view that the national sale allows exchange of bloodlines - If I take an animal from Bute it is very likely to have different bloodlines to those coming from the Midlands or the South East, for example. And if I want new blood, I can study the pedigrees of those in the catalogue, and contact breeders for info prior to the sale. Buyers often do go to such sales having done a significant amount of homework first. But if they go to the sale and see an animal scared because it cannot be handled, no inspection possible for same reasons therefore no independant assessment, and so covered in green stuff having come in a messy float straight from a field of rich grass, how can they see what they are buying?

I may have an elitist view of what the National Show and Sale should be, but I make no apology for that. The event should be run to high standards and demand high standards of those entering stock.

However, just as we can choose to register stock or not, we have lots of other outlets for stock - other specialist sales, general market sales, private sales or whatever. How many Dexters change hands in a year? Could they all be at the National Show and Sale? Should they all be there?

Many of the best animals at the National Show and Sale over the years have been little shown animals from comparatively unknown breeders, but ones who have made a serious effort at the presentation of their stock. I cannot see where Louisa sees a clique of breeders. I have been a vendor, buyer or inspector at almost every one since 1988. There are always new faces among the vendors. Yes, familiar ones too, but a healthy mix.

Duncan

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Thu May 22, 2008 12:42 pm

The original discussion was prompted by a debate on whether an animal should be halter broken. I am certainly not advocating entering half wild animals into the sale. Mine are quiet and used to being handled, but not halter broken, and I would have no hesitation in buying such animals. All that is required is suitable accommodation, which I understand is available at Melton Mowbray.
I prefer to sell privately, but the small producer may find the possibility of a sale facility that draws a large number of buyers a useful attraction. The Society should be aiming to attract members, not repel them. I repeat the sale of Dexters at an unorganised sale with no potential buyers, where they fail to make a reasonable price can only prove a bad advertisement for the breed.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Thu May 22, 2008 5:08 pm

Slightly at cross purposes here, I think Duncan. I know I went to the Stoneleigh sale several times when I started out, expecting to buy foundation stock within my budget. The starting bids were my maximum! So, I came home empty handed after the trouble & expense of getting there. In the end I bought all my foundation stock for both cattle and sheep locally. I have travelled immense distances since (Southwold and Dingwall) for bulls but these were private purchases. The concept of the 1000gn Stoneleigh Dexter has been overtaken by the 2000gn Melton Dexter. I think a National sale should have elite halter trained stock BUT should also cater for the other end of the market in both quality of animal and price tag AND make a clear distinction between the two, thus giving more opportunity for a greater number of both vendors and purchasers to foregather at one truly National event.

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:59 pm

Louisa, how can you have a National sale at low prices? It would cost everyone except those very close to the venue to take their animals there just to get less than the transport and associated costs back. Such sales are for the local trade. To have a two tier system at the same sale would also have the effect of lowering the top prices rather than raising the bottom of the market. There is nothing wrong with either, but the two just do not mix.

Duncan

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Fri May 23, 2008 8:32 am

I believe the Dexter Society should be looking to promote the cattle for the small owner; this is where the future of the breed must lie. To spend resources on a few high flyers will give no return to the majority of subscribers. Other breeds can justify high prices backed by performance statistics that then earn good money through AI in dairy herds. High prices in the Dexter world without substance are extremely unlikely to justify themselves in financial return, and can only be considered a short-term self-feeding fashion gimmick
It is true that transport costs are killing the prospects for central sales. Would it be possible for the Society to organise a sale on line, I believe livestock sales in general will go down this route, with health becoming a greater concern, and diesel going through the roof. However most who attend the yearly sale do so to enjoy the company of other Dexter enthusiasts, not simply to take their animals.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

bjreroberts · Post by **bjreroberts** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:41 am

A National Show & Sale should only be for the best examples of a breed, surely it is intended to be the showcase of the best a breed has to offer? I have no problem with it being elitist that is what I expect it to be. The only reason I would attend would be to meet other members and to try and learn more about what the breed should be like.

When starting out, especially if new to cattle, we should be encouraging new/potential members to buy locally from one of the breeders listed in the society literature. In most cases they can be offered the support and advise of the seller and / or field advisors.

When I started, the last place I would go is to an auction (they are for people that know what they are doing)! I visited 3 local breeders before choosing one I felt most comfortable with, more for the support they offered and the way they handled and kept their animals than the quality of the animal. Their support and that of the field advisors was invaluable.

Edited By bjreroberts on 1211532116

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:50 pm

‘showcase of the best a breed has to offer’ The only ‘best’ it offers to the present is the possibility of winning in the show ring, breeding credentials for beef and milk are ignored. A breed sale should cater for the needs of the membership. Where are your true priorities?
I sell successfully privately, but the smaller member is not likely to have many enquiries, I have watched too often over the years, cases where folks for one emergency or another have sent the stock to the local market in desperation, and received a pittance for good quality stock. The farming fraternity, on the whole, have little interest in a niche breed.
On your own confession, when starting up, you would prefer to go to breeder who could offer you some experience, not another amateur. The first thing I point out to a newcomer is the necessity to think in terms of performance rather than looks. The national sale puts all the emphasis on the latter.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

justmalc · Post by **justmalc** » Fri May 23, 2008 5:09 pm

I agree, an on-line sale would be extremely useful and is already operated by some breeds.

I can confirm that Melton Mowbray market are happy to take non halter trained animals in September - just let them know when you book in.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Fri May 23, 2008 6:42 pm

Malcolm

How do the online sales take place? What is the format, a slideshow, or online catalogue with pictures? Or is it an actual online bidding system as used by some purchasing authorities, like e-Bay?

On the issue of looks, it could be just my stock of course, but I can say hand on heart that my best breeders are not the best looking cows, and the best looking (in the opinion of Dexter judges, not me) are my worst. In fact I shot the best looking animal a few months ago. As I say, it could be just my farm, but that is fact. I now have another very good looking cow, and I cannot get her in calf. Some of the scruffy and ordinary ones just seem to get on with it.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1211565202

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:53 pm

It isn’t just your stock, Clive. I could quote one much depicted Dexter show winner who at the age of five still hasn’t achieved one live calf. The highest world record yield for a milking cow was held for years by an animal, which, according to her owner, had every known show fault. It is performance that counts.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

LISA · Post by **LISA** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:06 pm

Oh dear,there does seem to be a lot of spite (OR IS IT ENVY!)towards achieving high prices of Dexters at auction or privatly.Mrs Rutherford (woodmagic) I have attended the national show and sale for more than 20 years and have never once seen you there,so how can you possibly comment on quality of the the stock forward?Another matter which i do find very interesting is this whole issue of animals being EITHER productive OR goodlooking but not both-strange!.Maybe i have spent the past 24 years getting it totally wrong but I am striving to breed highly productive animals that are also good looking and conform to the breed standard(yes it is possible for both)Whilst i HUGELY respect your opinion and experience Mrs Rutherford please do not insult me and plenty of other breeders by implying that high prices and performance don't go together THEY CAN.Needles Hall Mini Rolo sold for 2600gns Melton 2005.She was a prolific milker ,from a consistently milky female line,and has produced good beefy calves every year since.Everyone is entitled to breed what they like without judgement.I cannot believe that anyone if they are being TRUELY HONEST wouldn't want to achieve top prices.Given the choice of an animal that is purely productive,or an animal which is equally productive AND visually goodlooking AND conforms to breed standard,AND is also worth alot more financially.Which would you go for? Looking forward to seeing everyone at Melton,it is a fantastic event!

wagra · Post by **wagra** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:09 am

It seems to me that for anyone to keep such an up-to-date finger on the pulse of the Dexter world is an achievement. To do it by emails, e-photos, telephone calls, visitors and their photo albums, is exceptional.

I for one understood Beryl and Clive to 'imply' that looks didn't necessarily guarantee performance, not that looks necessarily negated performance, as they only quoted a couple of examples.

Why would a person begrudge showing and high prices when there are customers across the globe doing it for them? The message seemed to me rather that it is possible for some spectators to be taken in by presentation, showmanship, and ringcraft.

Are there any of these high priced, top performing, show cows with pedigrees that go back a lot further than only seven or eight generations? If so it is a pity we don't see them represented, through their equally pure sons, on the international AI listing.

Margaret.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:20 am

Precisely. I don't know how you turned it around into ugly is good, good-looking is bad Lisa, because that is not what is being said and that obviously be silly. If you think it's envy, I get more in beef from the average animals than the sale prices at sales and I am actually astonished at how little animals go for and have said so on this board on many occasions. The top priced bull sold at Melton went for just about twice what I get for a bull in boxes! Doesn't make sense to me.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1211613750

justmalc · Post by **justmalc** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:28 am

Clive,

The sales we've seen online (for Charolais cattle) have involved a slide show and also specified viewing dates if potential buyers then want to see the animal in the flesh. The last one I followed involved the submission of sealed bids but he e-bay system would be interesting - although there would be some technical and legal issues to be overcome.

Off to pack my lunch now for the EGM!

Malcolm.

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Sat May 24, 2008 10:54 am

Lisa, your memory possibly is not long enough, I have sold twice at the National Show and Sale. My animals made respectable prices, and on the second occasion I topped the prices with one of them. I certainly was not suggesting a pretty animal could not go hand in hand with performance, and strive to produce both in my breeding, but I believe price today should relate to performance, not simply appearance.
Shows do a useful job in demonstrating what a Dexter should look like, but again when it comes to breeding, I prefer herd competitions where the proof is in an entire herd up to a given standard, most herds can produce one or two outstanding animals.
Today, when I can no longer travel, I am lucky enough to be able to sell at home, where I can choose my buyers, and gain enormous satisfaction in hearing of the progress of my stock.
When it comes to sales I believe the Society should be catering for the smaller breeder, helping them in sales, and providing guidance in what to buy, rather than chasing achievement in the show ring.
Beryl (Woodmagic)