re registering within 30 days

forestblaze · Post by **forestblaze** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:53 pm

at the present time there is no cost to the breeder to notify the birth of a calf (other than a postage stamp) but there is a cost to the society in as much as they have to spend time on opening the envolope and in puting the information into the system and then printing a registration document and send it to the breeder, so not only does the time have to be paid for so does the return postage.
I have drafted a programme that should cut all this out for any member that has a computor and is conected to the internet, whilst the society will have to pay a computor expert (which I am definatly not) to put this in place I would consider that this cost would be covered within the second if not the first year of operation and in future years there would be a very reasonable finacial not to mention time saving to the DCS.
also by this method the herd book could also be available on screen which would mean we could have up to date details not ones that are at best a year out of date when we get them,also this would save the DCS money, at present we pay for the herd book in january and ten moths later are still waiting for it who has the bank interest on those £10's.
my suggested idea will be put before the new council and hopefully they will take it on board and not just discard it.
Bill Osborne, Forest of Dean.

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:42 pm

Ann,
I did not mention the £10 fee for registering animals, only the time and effort needed to send the information within the time period. I am sure if we all sent in birth notifications first and apply for the pedigree registration a few months down the line when we can see the potential of our animals the DCS will find a way of changing how they do things. For a start there will be less animals registered (I have two heifers that are registered that will end up in the freezer as I don't think they are good enough to breed from) and there will be twice as much work for the office as they will have to do the job twice! a good incentive to look for change I think.
Fees are a totally different issue, I think the problem with them is whether the individual feels they are getting value for money, to be able to afford to pay does not enter into it.
If you think you pay too much then say so, the topic has been aired before and will be aired again. We all have veiws on the subject and I won't be afraid of voicing mine, I've been shot down in flames on this forum before for expressing an unpopular point of view, I'm sure it won't be the last time it happens, I'll just put my tin hat on a bit earlier next time.
Martin.
Medway Valley Dexters. In the Garden of England.

Peter thornton · Post by **Peter thornton** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:45 pm

Martin, don't forget that registration of a female costs £40 after the 30 days, even if birth notified. If you leave it until after 12 months then it costs £100.

groubearfarm · Post by **groubearfarm** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:46 pm

It seems I am the only new member of Council, not to have served before, I feel I have a tremendous amount to get to grips with. I wish I had been voted into the position as I would feel I had the support of the membership rather than the few who pursuaded me to stand.

I think it vital that Council always remember they represent the membership and their purpose is to promote the Dexter breed. The way forward is through democracy and not a few members shouting loudest. There is obviously a difference of opinion from the people who follow this forum, we need to get to the grass roots and determine what the membership wants and what can practically be done.
Fiona

bjreroberts · Post by **bjreroberts** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:15 pm

I have been prompted to reserect this post having just read Sylvia's post on the "Rise and Fall of my Dexter Herd".

As a relative newcomer I have only ever done one registration, which I did online and simply entered the information requested, paid the fee and hey presto got a certificate some days later.

There seem to be many benefits both to the member and the society encourage registration:

1) Improved data on the Dexter population
2) "Insurance" against TB with the higher rate of compensation for registered animals.
3) Not knowing whether to fully register an animal until it is old enough to tell whether it is good breeding stock.

What percentage of registrations are carried out online and what is the actual cost incurred to the society of doing this?

I cannot think of a logical reason why not to keep the cost of registering online to a minimal amount (say £5), with an additonal cost later when you need to act on that registration and need proof of it i.e. sale, compensation etc.

There would be the issue of none notification of deaths, but this could simply be got around by a blanket removal at 30 months for all males unless the registration has been acted on.

I personally would happily pay £5 to register all animals online (surely worth it for the insurance of extras compensation for TB?). If I then choose to use the registration for breeding, selling on, or for TB compensation I have to pay a further fee of say £15. Although the overall cost maybe higher, the impact is less as it is at the point you are earning money from the act of registering and is easier to absorb. Overall income for the society would also be higher, or am I missing something?

I do accept this is only really practical for online registrations as it is the processing of registrations which incurs costs, but surely that is the majority now?

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:03 pm

I am just about the register 2 bulls slightly late. I do not like to register bulls until quite late in the day for obvious reasons. The charge is an amazing £170 per animal. I cannot find another society that charge such incredible fees and i can confirm that no more work is involved because I have asked. It is purely penal or a misguided effort to get people to register early. It has the opposite effect on me and makes me feel like going non-pedigree which I may well do. I am registering only because of the TB insurance aspect and for no other reason whatsoever. That is not a good reason.

domsmith · Post by **domsmith** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:33 pm

carole wrote:One quick question linked with this can anyone tell me how long you usually have to wait before receiving certificates after registering/notifiying change of ownership. Thanks

I have just joined the society, and transfered 18 cows and heifers into my herd. It took 6 weeks to recieve the certificates back, i noticed the cheque had been cashed so i wasnt panicking but 6 weeks is pretty poor.
i have lots of calves on the ground some to register and i have had to wait for confirmation of my herd to start registering. Yes i could have chased them up, but dexters are a side issue to my farming business and i really cant be fussed.

It took several years for me to join the society because the charges and penalties did look totally out of proportion. It made me think the society was petty and seemingly hobbyist, attributes i cant stand.

I hope i am wrong.
Buying in another 14 forced me to join. i am enthusiastic about dexters, and the society will have to grow on me.

dominic

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed May 21, 2008 7:34 am

On the reg time front, Elaine who does the regs had an accident and has been off work for some time and still is I think. Whether that has slowed certs down I do not know but I would have expected it to.

On the fees, there is a comparison to the basic charges of other societies where they are in the public domain on www.dextersteer.co.uk but last time I tried the server was too busy.

Overall, if anything, the DCS charges are low, but certain charges seem to be penal and to have been put in place to get people to register early. In the case of bulls, I think this is a big mistake because as I have said, I am VERY tempted now to go non-pedigree, and if you lose the bulls from a herd, you loose the whole herd from there on, forever. So I regard the bull overage fee as barmy and would like to see it changed or the time extended especially to give more time to see how the animal turns out temperamentally. Other societies have overage fees but not to this extent that I can find. I am just about to pay out £340 for two bulls at 20 months! Other societies also charge for birth notification, which take almost as long as registrations if I remember correctly and are free with DCS.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1211355826

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:03 am

I agree with the sentiments of the last three postings. The recent investigation by Cardiff on the genetics of the Dexter uncovered a wide diversity within the breed. I maintain this is because the small breeder has provided it. Now there appears to be a mood to restrain the registration of bulls. Most of the main breeds are suffering, because the over use of a few AI bulls has reduced the gene pool. We cannot envisage what unknown desirable genes we are eliminating by refusing registration of some of these bulls, most of which will probably only sire about six females. It also antagonises the owners. The rules show no expertise, and the expense is certainly unjustified. The Society in my view should cater for the small owner who runs a few animals partly for pleasure, and should find a welcome and encouragement to do so from the Society. Provision can quite rightly be made for the use of bulls on AI or sale overseas, leaving the small breeder the opportunity to do their own thing within their own herd, possibly to the long-term advantage of the breed.
Beryl (Woodmgic)

wagra · Post by **wagra** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:39 am

The various regulations of Meat & Livestock Australia and DCAI are such that we don't have to register a bull before we use him, and we don't have to register heifers before they have proven to be fertile. We don't have to E-tag until they are about to leave the property, but we do have to tattoo before registration.
We can't register off-spring of unregistered cattle, obviously, but we can register the sire and the dam at the same time as their calves.
Margaret

wagra · Post by **wagra** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:43 am

PS. We don't birth notify but do have an annual herd return.
Margaret.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:46 am

I think I'm going to move to Australia :D, seems like you've got more sense down-udder.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1211363524

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:21 pm

We are a new Dexter herd owners and are trying to register our young bull, having sent off the DNA sample etc a while back we have been advised by the DCS not to use him until we get the registration form back from them which has been held up.

There has been a bit of a mix up somewhere, we will want to use him in about a month to 6 weeks and will have no choice then but to go ahead and keep our fingers crossed if we still haven't recieved any paperwork.

We have had a few problems with sorting out the DNA one way and another and he will not be parent verified either so all in all it has been a bit of a bad start for us as far as registering anything is concerned as this is the first Dexter we have attempted to register!

Just bad luck on our part we think as everyone at the DCS has been very nice and as helpful as possible.

Sorry to digress from the point here but surely it isn't that much of a chance to take, to use him before the paperwork arrives? Or have we missed something?

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:50 pm

I know the history of this one. The bull cannot be parent verified because his dead dam’s DNA has been lost, when the firm doing the blood typing went out of business. Despite the production of a blood typing for her, regulations apparently prohibit this being used. Presumably if the heifer calves are the result of using him being used before he has been registered, those calves will not be eligible for registration even if the delay is due to the office! This has to be bureaucracy at its worst, and has little to do with compiling an accurate and reliable Herd Book.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

moomin · Post by **moomin** » Wed May 21, 2008 7:34 pm

I am sure you can register a bull as "not parent verified" if one of his parents is dead. It has been done before.
I like the idea of parent verification for bulls but I think it should be voluntary not compulsory and I think making it compulsory was done too soon and is a big mistake.
I think DNA profiling should be compulsory, if we DNA profile bulls then in a few years time we would have automatic parent verification because eventually we would have every bulls profile on record!
Lets make it easy for our members to register stock and not too expensive after all we are not selling bulls worth 5 figures!
It is more important to educate our members to use good bulls from good dams and to get them registered than to worry about parent verification.