Halter training for auctions - Sale of untrained stock

[Broomcroft]

It's just sunk in to my head. If 2 shorts put together produce 25% "Normal" calves, I assumed that these would be short and Normal, but these calves won't be short because the real underlying animal show itself and it will just be a long-leg.

Sorry about my joke. I wasn't making light of a serious issue.



Edited By Broomcroft on 1209924848

[Martin]

Beryl, I bought up the subject of recording in a past topic, as I believe it very important in proving to people what can be achieved. Martin & Caroline Ryder have done an exellent job in their article in the last bulletin, but the figures are of little use unless you know the breeding of each animal (at least it does give them an idea as to whom to buy from! or rather not!). We need this type of information but in greater depth and detail. Does anyone in Dexter land record birth weights and weights at different ages, killing weights and dressing out percentages? Do we know how much beef we produce per acre? Do we know how much it costs to produce a kilo of beef or litre of milk? Other Society's have been doing this for years, and I believe it is about time we did the same.
Taste is very important but not at any cost, performance figures are almost as important.

Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.

[Broomcroft]

Good points Martin. On www.info.dexterbeefonline.co.uk (in the download section) you will find some basic figures together with an idea of costs and the "profit" from each animal in the stats based upon a standard price, a certain level of fixed costs (vet fees, foot trimming) and an extremely rough estimate of variable costs (forage etc). All a bit simple but it is based upon figures from DBO people and it now include Martyn's averages at the end as if they were one animal.

The costs can be right or wrong, but they are always on the same basis, so they give a tool by which to compare each animal on a like for like basis.

[Rutherford]

Have just taken look at the costings on your site Clive, they are excellent, and hopefully will stimulate more. I agree very much with Martin, except on the question of the taste. I do think it essential that we keep a product that can carry a premium, or we are going to lose the battle on higher slaughter costs.
Performance is important, but I gather it tends to go hand in hand in hand with the ability to produce off grass, that in turn affects the palatability and high quality content.
To be fair, until recently, other Societies have had far bigger numbers to obtain figures from.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

[Broomcroft]

When comparing statistics, the key mistake that is made is the one made by the beef industry. And that is to compare grass finished animals with grain finished at the same age. You cannot compare them. Grass finished gives you a different, and many would say better flavour, plus a natural balance of fatty acids. But they take longer to finish. So if you compare data, you need to compare the animals WHEN they were finished, and not at a specific age. Compare a 20 month old grain fed with a 20 month old grass fed, and the grain fed will win hands down. Compare them when they're finished however, 20 months say for grain, 25+ month for grass, then that's a fair comparison and any difference should be small.

The same with weight gains. You have to (a) allow for the differences in the finishing systems and (b) allow for the relative size of the animals you are comparing it to. So if you're comparing with an Canadian-type Angus, you might even need to double up your figures first and compare 1.1/2 or even 2 Dexters to one Angus. The larger cattle can have deadweights of 400kg. When you do both these adjustments, I think the better beef Dexters may be a lot more comparable than you imagine. Leaving just the killing and butchering costs as the issue.

According to my bible on grass-finishing, the maximum weight for a cow fit to produce grass-finishing steers on lowlands is 400-450 kg, less is better still, but not tiny. The medium and larger Dexters, I think are perfect for grass-finishing and are viable.

Some butchers are now looking specifically for grass-fed. What a great sign for smaller cattle.

As far as the frame goes, short, long, med whatever, I don't go for it to be honest. It's all about your farm. Ours happens to be recently drilled "modern" grasses with loads of clover, so we are actually better off with lighter built cows. Dumpy ones (whether short or long) have problems here and would get too fat if I let them, but on another farm they would be just what is needed. To me, that's one of the main attractions of Dexters. There is such a wide variety, they can suit all sorts of different situations and you can get what you want for your farm if you know what to look for.



Edited By Broomcroft on 1210000086

[Rutherford]

No need to apologise for introducing a vein of humour Clive, it is largely the ability to be able to laugh when things go wrong that keeps most farmers sane!
Sylvia, I would love to know how many of these not mythical animals creatures there are. Unfortunately, I don’t see how it could be done, unless all Dexters were DNA’d., which as you say is an expensive business. If an animal always breeds calves that make the same eventual size as her, she is probably a true breeder, but one cannot rule out the chance that she has just had a lucky session of calvings. If she is bred to a non-short bull, but produces calves that vary considerably in size, she is almost certainly a carrier. When I have a pen of calves, they are all so alike there is difficulty in distinguishing them, even when I have used different bulls.
The easiest way to breed them, if one has a mixed herd, is to obtain a good non-short bull, and then DNA his female calves.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

[Louisa Gidney]

Woodmagic, just to reassure you that I was playing Devil's Advocate and merely pointing out that breeding out the bulldog may not be as straightforward as some would hope. I do feel very strongly on the topic of "improvement", which has given us the Holstein and Belgian Blue as the apogee of 200 years of selective breeding. I would hope that Dexter breeders are a sufficiently diverse group to maintain a range within the breed that, as Broomcroft says, means everyone can find a Dexter to suit their holding.

[Rutherford]

When I compare my lively little Dexters with such a zest for living with the lethargic zombie water butts over the hedge, I marvel at the greed and vanity of man in his efforts to improve the bovine. But that is no excuse for turning a blind eye to the one catastrophe we have bred into our Dexter. It is not a type, simply a faulty gene that prevents the skeleton developing as it should.
Since half the calves are going to be male, it also reduces the future breeding potential to a mere 25% of the total born, which has to be in contradiction to the stated aims of the Society. Compound this with the risk of a bulldog calf; frequent early onset of arthritis; and difficult calvings if the small short leg heifer produces a full size calf, to cite a few of the potential handicaps, and there can be little justification for its retention, in the light of our knowledge of its true inheritance.
Most Dexter breeders I know want a small compact Dexter, those who don’t would be wiser to pick another breed, and be sure of getting what they want. No real breeder of livestock would deliberately pick a lottery; chance plays a big enough part anyway. Unless we decide what comprises a good Dexter, and stop pretending we can be all things to all men, we shall remain the laughing stock of the farming world.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

[AlisonKirk]

Our Dexters are short & non-short, we have no problems at calving or any other time (no more than we had when we had our Angus x Friesian suckling cows). They're farmed as a single suckling herd, managed correctly and producing superb beef. We're not aiming to get bigger carasses and we're certainly not a laughing stock with our Dexters. A local farmer has let us plant 25 acres with a four year ley of ryegrass/red clover/vetch mix & we're hoping this will increase our weight gain by 8%. We're being taken seriously, with many local farmers having eaten at establishments where our beef is sold.

Will have to finish off later on.

Alison Kirk
Boram Dexters

[Broomcroft]

With my short leg cows, it's pot luck what you get. Put to a non-short bull, out of one very short cow, I have had a short, a normal long, and my tallest animal to date. My non-carriers are consistent with very few surprises and what you see is what you get. My very biggest steers, and they are pretty big and heading for the butcher, are by a very short bull as are two extremely tiny short carrier females, by the same bull.

In my ignorance when we started, we put the carrier bull to carrier cows and had one bulldog that we know of. I was dreading finding one, expecting something like out of Alien, but it was almost comical, but it was very unpleasant at the same time. Just blubber with little legs sticking out at each corner. Horrible. I felt very guilty for having made this little thing suffer.

[AlisonKirk]

Just to finish off.....what we're doing is looking to maximise output from our Dexters (due to demand we're now selling from 24 months of age) hence the new leys. It will be early 2009 before we see the results.

We had many successes in the show ring until 2000 with our short-leg Dexters, but have not shown since due to a change in personal circumstances. It is the short leg Dexter which has increased the breed's popularity - I'm sure most Dexter owners, certainly up until recently - chose the breed because of its small size....would they have gone into another breed of cattle? I very much doubt they would.

When speaking to other Dexter breeders it becomes obvious that each one of us is going about things differently and being successful. I can only comment on our system which is working well for us and we have a nice level herd of Dexter cattle which people recognise as Dexters and comments such as, "Oh we've seen Dexters at such and such show - we love them." They're referring to the short leg Dexter, which seems to have more character than larger cattle.

I appreciate everyone has their own views / ideas, but if you want bigger cattle, look for another breed. I'm also not sure if the beef loses some of its succulence if Dexters are too big?

Alison Kirk
Boram Dexters

[Rutherford]

Alison, I am sorry you took it personally. Anyone knowing how you have built up a first class business, in very adverse circumstances, utilizing the Dexter so capably, can only have admiration for your achievement.
Once folks learnt that I was no longer breeding the traditional Dexter, I was told that the talk of short versus long was considered hilarious, that we were a century behind in our breeding, and that any animal with such an enormous variety of shapes and sizes in one field couldn’t claim to be considered a breed.
If I were in conversation with an enthusiastic Belgium Blue or Holstein breeder, I wouldn’t dream of telling them what I really thought of their breeding!
Beryl (Woodmagic)

[Broomcroft]

Alison - When you start using your clover, you'll find it difficult stopping the succulence in any of your beef whatever their size. I am certain the animals get bigger as well! I bought a medium-sized long steer in from a show herd last year and he's now a big lad!

It's almost equivalent to hard feed with high protein and energy levels. Weight and marbling gets piled on much quicker than I was expecting. I think I'm going to be finishing longs at possibly at 20-22 months, and shorts maybe earlier. Have to try this yet. I'm doing longs now at 24-25 months and they are over-finished for my taste buds. Extremely succulent.

It's a great finish with much more omega-3 (65% more than grass) and a very special flavour. I can smell the same flavour that's in our beef in our sheds. I call ours clover-reared now. Our fields are about 35% white clover and it's not easy to keep control of. I realise you're doing it differently with red clover for forage.

We were finishing hogget lambs off on clover, out in the fields, in mid-January this year! And our butchers were delighted with them and their customers have commented on the special flavour.

[Martin]

Short V long, carrier and non carrier, too small, too big, brindle, white in the wrong places, horned, polled etc. etc.
Is this not the breed we have chosen? accept that the Dexter is a very diverse breed and so are their keepers. you should also accept that there are registered animals out there that are not of the breed standard. How many bulls are there that when inspected at 2 years or younger where within the standard, but as bulls grow until they are about 6 years are now too tall? There is also talk that some Dexters are getting too small!
Dexters are a lot of things to a lot of people and are attractive for different reasons, I can never see a time when all Dexters are of an even size and shape. One way to keep people happy may be to have more than one herd book for differing categories of animals (I'll duck now I've said that). I also believe that the larger Dexter is already here and should be accepted by those that say 'get a bigger breed', you cannot stop evolution!

Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.

[AlisonKirk]

Hi Beryl.......oops, don't worry I didn't take it personally, I was just trying to support the short-leg Dexter, as there seems to be so much negativity towards them. E-mails can sometimes be read in a different light to what is intended and I think my posting may have come over in that way.

Best wishes
Alison
Boram Dexters