Not that long ago the Northern Group of the Society was afflicted by a similar occasion. As members turned up for the AGM, half of the existing committee were prominent by their absence having, apparently, resigned the previous day.
The Dexter Cattle Society of America (or variations) was firmly split not that long ago.
It is all very well saying that no Dexter has died of mad cow disease. Not surprising really THEY are not mad it is the owners (including myself!)
A dysfunctional Council is neither use nor ornament but I suppose, in some sort of sympathy with Malcolm and Jo, I do wonder how a newly formed Council knew it was dysfunctional at its first meeting.
The events causing this are history let us deal with the situation that we now face. There is no Council. There may be a steering group of control freaks who wish to take over the whole world of dexterdom but a) I do not believe that and b) as one who has tried to drive Dexters I know from experience that such a project if foredoomed - Dexter owners do seem to have a resemblance to their cattle!
I personally wish the steering group the very best of luck and I hope that they never have to call on my expertise (?) which happens to be in the manipulation of superalloys...
I am (was!) a scientist/engineer. What I want from the Society is an efficient and professional pedigree/registration service that goes on year in and year out without all these alarms and excursions. I am quite happy to let others decide how the breed should develop. I shall continue to buy my breeding stock from people I know and I shall continue to try to sell my beef for as much as I can. Whether I shall continue as a member of the Society rather depends on whether there is a Society to be a member of!
Alastair Cook
North Yorkshire/Lancashire/Westmorland
What actually happened? - Council Resignation
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
justmalc
I am about as dispassionate about this whole matter as anyone I think could be. I was not invited to the meeting and at the meeting I sat and listened and I only said one word to answer a technical question. And as I have said before, I didn't know anyone, I still don't know who was who, and I'm not interested either. I'm not someone who would normally stand for a council and I won't be in the future.
I have been asked to help out doing things like contracts of employment for staff who haven't got any! They don't even know if they'll be paid when they're ill, or what their holiday entitlement is, or notice period. Nothing! It's astonishing. They haven't even had rises or reviews promised to them ages ago.
We owe a very, very big thank you to Yvonne, Elaine and Chris. The office is professionally run, well organised and on top of things. Unlike their so-called bosses!
Back to the meeting, it is certainly amazing how different people will see the same thing in different ways and I accept that. But the meeting that I was at was very well behaved, polite, and one chap was nodding off and at times, I wasn't far behind!
There was no bullying or haranguing from the floor, it was absolutely the opposite. Calm, polite questions were asked of the council members such as "are you happy with the way the council works" or something like that. It was the council members responses that then led them to their subsequent decision to resign en mass.
I'll also add that personally, I think that en mass resignation was both unnecessary and inadvisable, but it is also the best possible example of just how bad things presumably must have been. If there had been any semblence of an opportunity to make good, then they would surely have left behind a small group from within their numbers of elected members to hold the fort, but they couldn't even do that it seems. That's what I deduce.
I wasn't privy to the private meeting but it was announced that they went into it to decide that what they wished to do, was within the constitution, and also to take legal advice, which I think they did.
Minutes will be out soon and I would suggest we read them before coming to any more conclusions.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1195203834
I am about as dispassionate about this whole matter as anyone I think could be. I was not invited to the meeting and at the meeting I sat and listened and I only said one word to answer a technical question. And as I have said before, I didn't know anyone, I still don't know who was who, and I'm not interested either. I'm not someone who would normally stand for a council and I won't be in the future.
I have been asked to help out doing things like contracts of employment for staff who haven't got any! They don't even know if they'll be paid when they're ill, or what their holiday entitlement is, or notice period. Nothing! It's astonishing. They haven't even had rises or reviews promised to them ages ago.
We owe a very, very big thank you to Yvonne, Elaine and Chris. The office is professionally run, well organised and on top of things. Unlike their so-called bosses!
Back to the meeting, it is certainly amazing how different people will see the same thing in different ways and I accept that. But the meeting that I was at was very well behaved, polite, and one chap was nodding off and at times, I wasn't far behind!
There was no bullying or haranguing from the floor, it was absolutely the opposite. Calm, polite questions were asked of the council members such as "are you happy with the way the council works" or something like that. It was the council members responses that then led them to their subsequent decision to resign en mass.
I'll also add that personally, I think that en mass resignation was both unnecessary and inadvisable, but it is also the best possible example of just how bad things presumably must have been. If there had been any semblence of an opportunity to make good, then they would surely have left behind a small group from within their numbers of elected members to hold the fort, but they couldn't even do that it seems. That's what I deduce.
I wasn't privy to the private meeting but it was announced that they went into it to decide that what they wished to do, was within the constitution, and also to take legal advice, which I think they did.
Minutes will be out soon and I would suggest we read them before coming to any more conclusions.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1195203834
Clive
I am sorry that I wasn't at the meeting and that the Council felt the need to re-sign.
As in all situations I expect that this issue is not black and white. Clearly Yvonne felt uncomfortable in her role and her complaints may, or may not, have been justified. I don't know and neither do most others. I have absolutely no complaints with Yvonne's work, simply with the absence of information and the fact that the vast majority of members are not aware of the issues leading to this situation.
I also understand that Council members were advised not to discuss the resignation at the meetiing because of legal issues and were therefore hamstrung and unable to present their position.
I do find it regrettable that the steering group are now running the Society, not because I have any issue with any member - most seem perfectly reasonable from comments on these pages - simply because theyare unelected and represent one point of view on these issues.
If people had complaints with the way things were run then I believe these concerns should have been passed to Council and it is they who should have reviewed the constittution.
It remains my firm belief that the Council should be re-instated and that they should carry forward reform where necessary. Skeletons need to be dragged from closets and grievances aired in the proper forums. I do not expect all Council members are entirely beyond reproach - how many of us are? But the Council were elected by the membership and have that authority which the steering group - however well meaning - do not.
I would repeat. I have no issue with Yvonne, who has always been courteous and professional in her dealings with me, or with the Steering Group, few of whom I know. My issue lies with the processes followed and the fact that good people have felt the need to resign, largely because the potential for litigation prevented them from defending their position openly and frankly.
I call for the re-instatement of the elected Council coupled with an acceptance of the need for constitutional review.
As in all situations I expect that this issue is not black and white. Clearly Yvonne felt uncomfortable in her role and her complaints may, or may not, have been justified. I don't know and neither do most others. I have absolutely no complaints with Yvonne's work, simply with the absence of information and the fact that the vast majority of members are not aware of the issues leading to this situation.
I also understand that Council members were advised not to discuss the resignation at the meetiing because of legal issues and were therefore hamstrung and unable to present their position.
I do find it regrettable that the steering group are now running the Society, not because I have any issue with any member - most seem perfectly reasonable from comments on these pages - simply because theyare unelected and represent one point of view on these issues.
If people had complaints with the way things were run then I believe these concerns should have been passed to Council and it is they who should have reviewed the constittution.
It remains my firm belief that the Council should be re-instated and that they should carry forward reform where necessary. Skeletons need to be dragged from closets and grievances aired in the proper forums. I do not expect all Council members are entirely beyond reproach - how many of us are? But the Council were elected by the membership and have that authority which the steering group - however well meaning - do not.
I would repeat. I have no issue with Yvonne, who has always been courteous and professional in her dealings with me, or with the Steering Group, few of whom I know. My issue lies with the processes followed and the fact that good people have felt the need to resign, largely because the potential for litigation prevented them from defending their position openly and frankly.
I call for the re-instatement of the elected Council coupled with an acceptance of the need for constitutional review.
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Chris Downward
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:02 am
- Location: Llanddeusant, South Wales
Having been shouted down on previous occassions on this web site I put this forward with the probable knowledge that the same will occur again.
My name is on the posting, I am a Dexter keeper and farmer and member of the DCS and no I did not attend the meeting or receive any emails on the subject--I hope that covers most areas.
I am amazed that an elected body resigns on mass and that without an election, a group of I'm sure worthy people are asked to rewrite our constitution. Surely the way forward in any sort of democratic institution is that when a government/council resigns new elections are held and the winning government/council looks at constitutions or whatever.
At the moment we have a caretaker organisation which has no mandate from the membership to do anything--surely this is wrong.
I do not understand the reasons for all this antagonism nor do I want to but if we are a membership organisation were members views count then the only solution is new elections followed by changes to constitutions or whatever-- not a steering organisation with no authority no matter how well meaning or efficient.
I shall await replies with interest.
Chris Downward
My name is on the posting, I am a Dexter keeper and farmer and member of the DCS and no I did not attend the meeting or receive any emails on the subject--I hope that covers most areas.
I am amazed that an elected body resigns on mass and that without an election, a group of I'm sure worthy people are asked to rewrite our constitution. Surely the way forward in any sort of democratic institution is that when a government/council resigns new elections are held and the winning government/council looks at constitutions or whatever.
At the moment we have a caretaker organisation which has no mandate from the membership to do anything--surely this is wrong.
I do not understand the reasons for all this antagonism nor do I want to but if we are a membership organisation were members views count then the only solution is new elections followed by changes to constitutions or whatever-- not a steering organisation with no authority no matter how well meaning or efficient.
I shall await replies with interest.
Chris Downward
Chris Downward
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
RE the constitution:
The probability is that it will not need all that much change. I think the main issue is the membership and length of service of Council. I am assuming that we will follow the present constitution in ammending the constitution. This will mean that we will need an EGM (I'm guessing this, perhaps someone can confirm or correct)
The situation with the steering committee is simply that of practicality. The elected Council have gone and someone needs to run the society.
I'm not sure if the constitution deals with such an eventuality, probably not. I guess that the society is in grave danger of a disolution scenario unless proper governance is quickly restored. I'm sure that is what the steering committee are working towards.
The probability is that it will not need all that much change. I think the main issue is the membership and length of service of Council. I am assuming that we will follow the present constitution in ammending the constitution. This will mean that we will need an EGM (I'm guessing this, perhaps someone can confirm or correct)
The situation with the steering committee is simply that of practicality. The elected Council have gone and someone needs to run the society.
I'm not sure if the constitution deals with such an eventuality, probably not. I guess that the society is in grave danger of a disolution scenario unless proper governance is quickly restored. I'm sure that is what the steering committee are working towards.
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Mark Bowles
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1290
- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:03 pm
- Location: Leicestershire England
The minutes of Nov 1st are now on the DCS website, click on the side menu heading " council matters" then click the dates of the said meetings.
Please take time to read these properly, its not easy, it wasnt an easy day! Hopfully some kind of explanation is in there somewhere for the members who are stuggling to come to terms with the situation.
Please take time to read these properly, its not easy, it wasnt an easy day! Hopfully some kind of explanation is in there somewhere for the members who are stuggling to come to terms with the situation.
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
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bjreroberts
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:12 pm
- Location: Bromsgrove
I have read the minutes and have to admit it has not helped clarify the situation for me!
I just hope the steering group can quickly draw up a new constitution and hold an EGM so that we ratify it and elect a new council so the society can move forward. Do we have a timetable for achieveing this?
I think we also have to be grateful for those of you on the steering group for dedicating a significant amount of time to this task.
I hope there are going to be enough volunteers to put themseleves forward for election to council given the history!
Ben Roberts
I just hope the steering group can quickly draw up a new constitution and hold an EGM so that we ratify it and elect a new council so the society can move forward. Do we have a timetable for achieveing this?
I think we also have to be grateful for those of you on the steering group for dedicating a significant amount of time to this task.
I hope there are going to be enough volunteers to put themseleves forward for election to council given the history!
Ben Roberts
Ben Roberts
Trehawben Herd
Bromsgrove
Trehawben Herd
Bromsgrove
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Chris Downward
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:02 am
- Location: Llanddeusant, South Wales
I agree with you Peter on the basis of a group of people standing in for the resigned council until elections are held--just to run the show--but lets make the basic core changes after an election.
This will allow feelings to settle and also give some gravitas to any changes. Otherwise I feel we may start to split the society which would be a disaster.
This will allow feelings to settle and also give some gravitas to any changes. Otherwise I feel we may start to split the society which would be a disaster.
Chris Downward
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
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Chris Downward
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:02 am
- Location: Llanddeusant, South Wales
Having just read the minutes of the meeting on the 1st--I am now totaly in confusion.
Question 1--why was the council dysfunctional, what were the personal agendas that were mentioned
Question 2--what is the need for all this secrecy, we are not running Tesco's
Question 3--what is "the way forward" that is being talked about.
No wonder things got into a mess, I am not interested in DCS politics, individual positions or the finer points of a DCS "magna carta"--what I want is simple--a breed society that runs registrations and pedigree's and has an occasional stand at an agricultural show. The rest of the stuff about "pushing the breed forward" etc etc is tosh until we can get the first bit sorted out.
When we have a united society then we can start doing other things-- at the moment all I can see is division upon division--who on earth will want to join us at the moment and why should people wish to stay in a society that doesn't really know what it wants to do, or if it did how to do it.
Question 1--why was the council dysfunctional, what were the personal agendas that were mentioned
Question 2--what is the need for all this secrecy, we are not running Tesco's
Question 3--what is "the way forward" that is being talked about.
No wonder things got into a mess, I am not interested in DCS politics, individual positions or the finer points of a DCS "magna carta"--what I want is simple--a breed society that runs registrations and pedigree's and has an occasional stand at an agricultural show. The rest of the stuff about "pushing the breed forward" etc etc is tosh until we can get the first bit sorted out.
When we have a united society then we can start doing other things-- at the moment all I can see is division upon division--who on earth will want to join us at the moment and why should people wish to stay in a society that doesn't really know what it wants to do, or if it did how to do it.
Chris Downward
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
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Rob & Alison Kirk
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:59 pm
Justmalc
You say that the membership have elected Council, but we have not had Council elections for the past 4/5 years, with the exception of the one this year. During that period, those members finishing their first term and standing for their second have been able to take their seat again on Council, without we, the membership, casting a vote on their performances. I believe that Council have let the membership down by not encouraging meaningful elections.
How can you call for the reinstatement of Council when they unanimously decided to stand down? This was done after some of the Council members stated publicly at the meeting that Council did not know how to function properly. Also, the entire Council then stated that they would not stand for election or be co-opted onto Council for the next two years.
Robert Kirk
Boram Dexters
You say that the membership have elected Council, but we have not had Council elections for the past 4/5 years, with the exception of the one this year. During that period, those members finishing their first term and standing for their second have been able to take their seat again on Council, without we, the membership, casting a vote on their performances. I believe that Council have let the membership down by not encouraging meaningful elections.
How can you call for the reinstatement of Council when they unanimously decided to stand down? This was done after some of the Council members stated publicly at the meeting that Council did not know how to function properly. Also, the entire Council then stated that they would not stand for election or be co-opted onto Council for the next two years.
Robert Kirk
Boram Dexters
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
Chris
You ask "Why the need for secrecy"?
It's because the issue that started all of this off was that of someones employment. It simply is not possible to discuss these issues on an open board that anyone can read. I don't know what the issues are but if I wanted to know then I would telephone someone involved and talk to them about it.
At present I'm content to let the steering committee deal with it as they have enough to be going on with without having to spend time telling me what happened.
I suggest that we give them some time and space.
What's happened has happened. There's no way of undoing it. Lets concentrate on the future.
Rob: It's not Councils fault that members did not put themselves forward for election. (Although it is true that Council could look at ways of making it easier to serve). When we have the next round of elections then it is to be assumed that there will be a full slate of nominations + a few. It's up to us to make sure that this happens.
You ask "Why the need for secrecy"?
It's because the issue that started all of this off was that of someones employment. It simply is not possible to discuss these issues on an open board that anyone can read. I don't know what the issues are but if I wanted to know then I would telephone someone involved and talk to them about it.
At present I'm content to let the steering committee deal with it as they have enough to be going on with without having to spend time telling me what happened.
I suggest that we give them some time and space.
What's happened has happened. There's no way of undoing it. Lets concentrate on the future.
Rob: It's not Councils fault that members did not put themselves forward for election. (Although it is true that Council could look at ways of making it easier to serve). When we have the next round of elections then it is to be assumed that there will be a full slate of nominations + a few. It's up to us to make sure that this happens.
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Chris Downward
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:02 am
- Location: Llanddeusant, South Wales
Peter
Thank you for the explanation I am now begining to understand what the difficulties were in explaining things. I certainly have never heard about any of this but again why should I--now that I have heard, the saga of events seems more reasonable.
Lets now have a date for new elections for council even if it is only to get a constitution written otherwise I think we will have a steering group that produces something that a future council may disagree with perhaps and the whole merry go round starts again.
Thank you for the explanation I am now begining to understand what the difficulties were in explaining things. I certainly have never heard about any of this but again why should I--now that I have heard, the saga of events seems more reasonable.
Lets now have a date for new elections for council even if it is only to get a constitution written otherwise I think we will have a steering group that produces something that a future council may disagree with perhaps and the whole merry go round starts again.
Chris Downward
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
Pant Y Turnor
Llanddeusant
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Rutherford
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:08 am
I hope members now realise, when they ask questions; care has to be taken on a board open to public scrutiny. As far as voting for a new Council, I agree it would be useless to press gang members. It has to be borne in mind that we have not had many takers in recent years. I have already made it known that I believe we could have many more volunteers, if they could make their contribution without being asked to spend a long day travelling across Britain, but rather work on line or teleconference, requiring perhaps three hours on the trot. A person in full time employment or caring for a young family could then undertake it. It would also make a level playing field for members in the Scottish Isles, Devon, Kent or Wales not just those in central England. Before we call for elections these decisions have to be made. How do we identify and encourage members who are willing and able to do the job and what are we going to ask them to do. Can we have some suggestions from those who are busy calling for elections; it is one of the problems the steering committee has to solve.
Beryl
Beryl
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
I would just ask people to hang fire a bit and wait for us to have time to publish how we see things. As has been said, the S/C's top priority is quite simply, to keep the show on the road in practical day to day terms, and fill the legal requirements for directors and trustees to exist etc. Everyone, including (in fact, especially) the S/C want to see an elected body return asap. Most advice has been not to rush.
In terms of amendments to the constitution, as it is called, the one thing that has repeatedly been recommended, is to have a smaller Council, maybe with additional non-voting, co-opted "helpers/advisors", but nevertheless, a smaller core.
If that is what most people think would be beneficial, and it is (by the way) what has been recommend by every advisor so far, 7 being the number most quoted, then to elect a new council of 12, and then subsequently change the constitution to 7 may not be the best way to go. (Maybe it is, but that's my thoughts).
The smaller number that seems to be a favourite, and may be the only real amendment required at this stage, who knows, then it will also make it easier to get 7 than 12. But the job of being on council also has to be attractive, and an enjoyable and happy thing to be doing to get the right people. I will not stand but not for that reason, I wold probably enjoy it in the right company.
As an aside, my personal view is that the constitutuon's role and importance is actually overplayed, and it is actually other things that need attention to avoid a repeat. We shall be posting our thoughts which have been accumulating by the day when we have had time to put it down in writing in the not too distant future. People who know me may be thinking, oh, that's in half an hour then!! But it won't be; it'll be at least a few days or weeks.
As I say, I would just hold on a bit till we get our act together. We have to realise there are daily issues to deal with and they are being dealt with, so it's very hard to do that and talk the politics of it all at the same time. Not enough hours in the day at the moment.
I'm posting this, not Fiona, because she is flat out doing almost nothing except society work.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1195321930
In terms of amendments to the constitution, as it is called, the one thing that has repeatedly been recommended, is to have a smaller Council, maybe with additional non-voting, co-opted "helpers/advisors", but nevertheless, a smaller core.
If that is what most people think would be beneficial, and it is (by the way) what has been recommend by every advisor so far, 7 being the number most quoted, then to elect a new council of 12, and then subsequently change the constitution to 7 may not be the best way to go. (Maybe it is, but that's my thoughts).
The smaller number that seems to be a favourite, and may be the only real amendment required at this stage, who knows, then it will also make it easier to get 7 than 12. But the job of being on council also has to be attractive, and an enjoyable and happy thing to be doing to get the right people. I will not stand but not for that reason, I wold probably enjoy it in the right company.
As an aside, my personal view is that the constitutuon's role and importance is actually overplayed, and it is actually other things that need attention to avoid a repeat. We shall be posting our thoughts which have been accumulating by the day when we have had time to put it down in writing in the not too distant future. People who know me may be thinking, oh, that's in half an hour then!! But it won't be; it'll be at least a few days or weeks.
As I say, I would just hold on a bit till we get our act together. We have to realise there are daily issues to deal with and they are being dealt with, so it's very hard to do that and talk the politics of it all at the same time. Not enough hours in the day at the moment.
I'm posting this, not Fiona, because she is flat out doing almost nothing except society work.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1195321930
Clive
I hope everyone takes Clive's comments on board. For heavens sake the steering committee has been brave enough to try and pick up the bits left and try to put things together again. I wish the people complaining would appreciate that it is only because of this S/C that we still have a Dexter Society functioning at all. Albeit in a somewhat temporary mode. Let them get on with it.