Dexters - Filling a wide niche

[Woodmagic]

Kirk you should have realised when you entered the world of Dexters you were entering a kingdom on their own. The rules of the common stock have little to do with Dexters, but I think envisaging a cattle Society that has a membership governed by the height of the potential owners is taking things a step too far.
Clive you will have to take it easy on all those beef pies or you are going to require something the size of a Holstein. It doesn’t sound to me as if Joseph is likely to breed much that I could approve of, I am afraid.

[Broomcroft]

That must mean you don't approve of the society limits Beryl? Because he's well within them unless I'm missing something, and there are larger bulls around.

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

Kirk you should have realised when you entered the world of Dexters you were entering a kingdom on their own. The rules of the common stock have little to do with Dexters

I understand and the point is well taken. I did specifically select Dexters because of their special size and manageability. I wanted something smaller than the next widely available breed up the scale, but not too small (for me). In our area of the world, there are very few of the smallest (non-chondro) Dexters. Amongst the available selection in this big corner of a major continent, I selected animals about average for the area, but they are a good bit larger than the famed Woodmagic animals - (I am proud to say that many of my animals do have Woodmagic animals in their pedigrees).

I certainly hope that many breeders continue to focus on the lower end of the Dexter scale, while others explore the middle or upper end of Dexterdom while staying well below all other widely available cattle breeds which allows us all to say "Dexters are THE small breed of dual-purpose cattle". Joseph the bull is a very small bull by cattle standards, but it sounds like he's not an extreme miniature by Dexter standards. I would love to have a batch of calves from him, but I'm also glad that others are keeping the very smallest end of the scale alive and thriving - who knows when those of us at the middle or upper end of the Dexter scale might need to dip into those extra-small genetics for an outcross.

Still smiling and enjoying this enlightening conversation. Thanks for sharing all of your honest, heart-felt opinions!

Kirk

[Woodmagic]

Your area of the world is I am afraid typical of the whole, there are very few of the smallest non-chondro Dexters – full stop. During the stage before it was recognised that a long leg Dexter bull could be used, a lot of animals were crossed. When enlightenment began, the tendency was to use anything regardless of its length of pedigree, providing it was big enough to guarantee freedom from bulldogs, genetics was not understood and folks didn’t realise that the frame of that larger animal was going to be inherited, even if it did arrive as a dwarf. Only the dwarf was retained for breeding with no concept of its actual genotype
In picking a forty inch animal I was trying to perpetuate the animal that came out of Ireland, not something to match my height, or snatched out of the air, in going away from that size, I knew I would also be losing the true Dexter attributes. The curse of the Dexter was that the type of person attracted to this charming little animal hadn’t a clue about genetics, and many still don’t. In the years of vast expansion, the real Dexter has been largely lost in the effort to avoid the bulldog. We could lose it altogether. I think it a great pity that the various Associations cannot recognise this.

[Sylvia]

Well, Kirk, I'm glad you are still smiling because I have found this string becoming more and more irritating.

We have a Dexter breed standard.

I think those of us who have bought Dexters and who breed Dexter x Dexters should be able to be fairly sure that what is produced is a satisfactory Dexter. Short and non-short are acceptable to the breed standard. (And however much people wish to say that shorts (carriers) are the devil's own children it is these that are firmly imprinted into the general public's mind as Dexters and who have attracted many people to start cattle keeping.)

How many cattle owners have a scientist's grasp of genetics? Very few I suspect. And I really don't think it is fair to blame owners carefully breeding pure Dexters, to the breed standard, for any perceived deterioration in the national herd.

[wagra dexters]

There is a quote by Ann Tanner in the front of Ted Neal's Life & Times Of Dexters. It says, "... individual herds come and go, only the breed itself survives ... if it's given a chance."

Some herds will be remembered, have a lasting effect on the international herd, and others will have no impact what-so-ever.

[Broomcroft]

I think Kirk's point about height could well be valid. Put it this way, if Mr Dexter had had a continuous line of family who kept breeding Dexters in Ireland, his descendent could well be 6'2" tall and his Dexters may be not as short as those of the original Mr Dexter. My family is the same...from 5'2" to over 6' in just 4 generations and I don't think it's nutrition because our diets have always been excellent. Even some Elite bulls are now pushing the Breed Standard's upper limits.

But that's just a thought and not something I wish to take further and I haven't the time to discuss as trying to use this fine weather to catch up and get my bales off the field. People around here still have bales they can't get at even though the sun is shining.

[Woodmagic]

If the fabled Mr Dexter really existed the one thing he was credited with was the addition of the bulldog to a breed that had existed for many centuries without it, it is probably fortunate he didn’t have a continuous family line.
I hope you have had better luck with your hay than we have had down here in the southwest, it is raining now, and crops cut and being worked for miles around.

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

My family is the same...from 5'2" to over 6' in just 4 generations and I don't think it's nutrition because our diets have always been excellent. Even some Elite bulls are now pushing the Breed Standard's upper limits.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I did a little additional research on this. The best theory is that we reach our maximum genetic potential height when we receive optimum daily nutrition including optimum protein, optimum vitamins, and optimum minerals 365 days per year during our growing years. It used to be hard to get year-round optimum vitamins before food fortification and vitamin pills. Fresh fruit and vegetables used to be hard to come by in February but now it's shipped in from down south (or up north for those of you in NZ). Remember when an orange for Christmas used to be special?

Vitamin supplements weren't widely available years ago. On top of this, any sick days is a day of shortened growth. Now modern medicine gets you back on your feet and back to eating in no time at all. In fact, eating while you're sick is easier with some of the symptom reducing drugs.

Both people and cows have a hard time growing to their genetic potential in a poorish environment. Think of young stock near skin and bones at the end of a hard winter - stunted for life. Put those same genetics in a more prime environment of year-round optimum vitamins, minerals, proteins, better shelter, and health care and you should have taller people and taller animals (but the relationship of sizes between the two should be about the same as it was in the past).

I'm not arguing for large Dexters, just trying to intellectually examine some of the many reasons Dexters might be a little larger today, in prime environments, than in the past. Better year-round nutrition/medical care is just one reason. Selection of belly-button-high animals by taller people is probably another, and the Chondrodysplasia gene hiding true taller genetics is another. This international board seems to an excellent place for cool-headed discussions like these.

Thanks,
Kirk

[Sylvia]

Umm, Kirk, what about the fact that is often bandied about now that the sparse, simple diet in the 50's was so much better for people than the luxury which is available now which is not making people healthier -just fatter. And that those who had all the childhood illnesses and were exposed to goodness knows what else (and managed to survive) do not suffer the allergies and other modern problems seen today? No I am not relating this to Dexters in any way, shape or form.

[Broomcroft]

I would imagine that the continuity of good nutrition and health care nowadays is probably the number one reason for size increases generally. If you stunt a steer on poor grazing, or a sheep, it's hard work getting back to where you were. I've heard it said that you can see in the meat where it was stunted.