Dexters - Filling a wide niche

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:44 pm

Very well put, Beryl.

Duncan

Jo Kemp · Post by **Jo Kemp** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:04 pm

Wholeheartedly agree - our breed is dual purpose. The bull may be a beefy chap but if his progeny does not milk well he is no good. The fashion is to breed for beef but if farming changes we may indeed wish to return to milking at least one cow ... or two ....

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:09 pm

I wonder if the niche defines the breed, more than the breed defines the niche. Here are 5 examples of individuals with rather different needs:

1. A very small landholder wishes to have just enough milk and meat for a family of four. They want to be sustainable and will either keep a bull or share a bull in the local community. Something around 40 inches feels about right to their family who are a little nervous about large livestock.

2. A large landholder without experience with large cattle wishes to provide premium gourmet beef (in manageable sized cuts and/or small halves and quarters) to a large customer base. He has no dairy needs. He would like cattle in the 44-46 inch size range to maximize both beef volume and ease of handling while maintaining highest quality gourmet flavor. This breeder feels that animals with personalities will certainly make the undertaking more pleasant. Easy calving and ability to fatten on quality grass is important.

3. A local craft dairy is looking for a breed that provides high quality milk for craft cheeses and other dairy products. Both cows and bulls must be very easily managed as his four young daughters will be helping with the operation. They would like animals between 42 - 46 inches because they fill it would be easier for them to milk with their existing equipment and to balance manageability with maximum milk volume. They aren't really interested in meat, but some nice beef would be a huge bonus to help with the economics of the operation.

4. A back-to-the-lander is looking for a breed that can be used for work but also provide good beef and milk. He has poorish land and can't support a large breed. He believes something in the 45-48 inch size range (for manageability and hard pulling ability) would strike a nice balance.

5. A genetics wiz with a passion for small cattle, would like to work on breeding a consistent strain of animals as close as possible to 38 inches. He has a lot of friends who would love to keep a little guy or two just to help keep the grass down in their backyards. He figures he could sell calves to those friends to offset the cost of his hobby. Having some nice beef and milk would be an added bonus. He doesn't want to be considered as a "TOY" breeder, just a small cattle breeder of a "real" breed.

In all of these cases, my best recommendation would be the Dexter, with a caveat that one would need to seek a strain that most closely meets their particular need. Mini (original)-Jerseys would be a good alternative in the dairy situation, if it weren't for the dangerous bulls. Lowline Angus might be a good alternative for the beef-only breeder, but their meat is simply not as gourmet-quality as Dexter Beef. So perhaps this underscores the fact that while Dexters as a breed are dual or even triple purpose animals, different strains focus on the different aspects. Some strains catering to smaller, some larger, some beefier, some milkier, some heavy pulling, and some right in the middle.

Would you all recommend different breeds to any of these five individuals (especially the beef-only, or dairy-only?) or could you all recommend strains of Dexters to all five potential breeders?

Kirk

PS. I agree that the standards can't be too wide, or we wouldn't have a breed at all, but if the standards are too narrow, then we fail to meet the needs of many breeders who would be left without reasonable alternatives.

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:49 am

Yes Kirk, I do agree that there should be enough variations within the genetics of the Dexter (within reasonable limits of course), to fill the needs of all the above mentioned families.

As long as there are enough breeders around, who are committed, like Woodmagic is, to breeding a non-carrier, low height, line of Dexters. I'm sure these genes will not be lost.

I myself am aiming for just such a herd, (with the addition of them being polled as well), because I feel that that is my largest market and they will keep breeding true to the Dexter Society standard for height.

It is far more economical for me to breed from tested or known non-carriers, than have to pay out over $100 per heifer calf to test for possible Chondro genes. (Remembering that we have two types to test fo in NZ). Once we have finished with our current carrier bull, (which I bought to remedy a lack in the rumps of our breeding herd), I do not intend to buy another carrier bull. It is far easier to be able to breed any of our non-carrier bulls to any of our non-carrier cows and not need to have at the back of my mind that the offspring of certain cows will need to be tested if they are heifers. (I don't keep bull calves at this stage). The freedom this will bring, will be wonderful. We only have one carrier cow left and one carrier heifer calf. Once these two animals are sold or eaten, in a few years time, life will become more simple.

And, if I ever manage to get a completely polled herd, they will be very low maintenance indeed. :D Not that I don't appreciate horned Dexters. They look beautiful in someone else's paddock. :laugh:

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:05 am

Any experienced breeder of livestock will know that if you set your parameters too wide you will never achieve your aims. It sounds to me Kirk as if you are promoting Heinz 57 varieties When choosing a breed you take the one that fits your requirements, not your neighbours.
Speaking from experience I used to put my sixty Dexters through a rotary parlour identical to one milking Friesians a few miles down the road. Those same Dexters have always supplied bull calves suitable for rearing on for beef, and I have had a ready market for them. My surplus heifers have been sold to horse owners who wanted something to keep the grass down that the horse wouldn’t eat, and to those who wanted a milk supply for the house.
Rejection if it occurred, used to be on the grounds that being non-short they wouldn’t be able to show, but that attitude is beginning to disappear. Today folks are starting to demand non-bulldog breeders. If you are going to promote a breed for a quality you need to be able to back it up every time, not leave yourself wide open to obvious discrepancies.
Coming right at the top when folks are asked why they chose the Dexter is the small size, it is the one thing which it has pre-eminent, not simply as a dwarf but in true breeding, squander it at your peril.

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:12 pm

Woodmagic wrote:Any experienced breeder of livestock will know that if you set your parameters too wide you will never achieve your aims.

I agree - Each breeder should have quite narrow parameters to aim for their herd if their goal is to build a consistent strain of Dexters over the long haul. The goal for our herd of 25 is tight consistency and we're getting there. Our calves are very much a matched set of excellent small cattle in a very narrow range who will grow to be small cattle. In fact, I've never seen a Dexter that wasn't small, they seem to be small, smaller, smallest - all smaller than the next widely recognized breed up the scale.

I'm not really promoting anything (honest), I'm just trying to understand (intellectually, out loud, and with all of your excellent feedback) why the Dexter breed does currently seem to have such wide parameters. I think the answer is that at the small end of cattledom, there is a very wide-open field of needs and many different types of folks turn to the multi-purpose Dexters to have those needs met (lacking any other practical alternatives).

Kirk

PS. I do feel humbly awed to be participating in a discussion with one of the world's premier breeders of Dexters, whose every post I very much look forward to and whose excellent advice I take very seriously.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:05 pm

Coming right at the top when folks are asked why they chose the Dexter is the small size

This is probably correct if you do the sums by people, but by head of cattle, I'll bet you get a totally different picture and a huge emphasis on beef. I chose Dexters specifically and only because of their taste. If it weren't for that I would have not bought Dexters. I am firmly in Kirk's No. 2 category and I want beef animals with lots of milk and I want "natural" meat.

It would be great to have a survey of what category people and cattle fall into. Dexter Beef Online, although only a few farms, accounts for nearl 3500 head of Dexters in the UK.

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:26 am

I wonder if an 800kg Dexter steer will taste as good as a 400kg Dexter steer. The meat will most likely be no better than any other beef animal. If there are so many Dexters owned by meat producers in England, energy would be better spent rallying to reduce costs, which no doubt it is. On the other hand, you may be paying over twice what we pay in costs, but you are also charging over twice for the meat, and converts to Dexter meat do seem to be happy to pay a premium.

The Dexter should be, should look like, and should be conserved as, a dual purpose cottage cow, best suited to subsistence and self-sufficient farming. Not 'dairy type' or 'beef type', just 'dual-purpose type', conforming to type & standard as dictated by the breed society. It probably took thousands of years to evolve it's qualities, hardiness and flavour, size being part of the parcel that sustains those attributes.

Selecting for size will conserve the genes introduced from other larger breeds by way of experimental and grading up introgression.

The scary bit is that I don't know that there are that many breeders like Beryl, looking after the pure genetics of the seed stock. Where are they? So far on paper I can find only Cornahir and Woodmagic, but if there are some other herds in England with uncontaminated lines, I wish that their owners would have their semen collected & sent to Australia.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:08 am

I took Kirk's sizes as about where we are at the moment. 800 kg would be massive! and wouldn't fnish on grass easily if at all. Not for me thanks. Best taste I've ever had was out of a 225kg deadweight but they've all been excellent, big and small, so I think taste is probably genetic maybe?

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:32 am

Exactly where are you at the moment Clive, can you give us your average for a five year old in withers height and weight?

Anna · Post by **Anna** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:16 am

The Dexter should be, should look like, and should be conserved as, a dual purpose cottage cow, best suited to subsistence and self-sufficient farming. Not 'dairy type' or 'beef type', just 'dual-purpose type', conforming to type & standard as dictated by the breed society. It probably took thousands of years to evolve it's qualities, hardiness and flavour, size being part of the parcel that sustains those attributes.

Wagra, you express almost exactly my feelings for Dexters and my reasons for choosing them over all other breeds available in Sweden. There simply is no other breed that fits into my set of demands. Small size, dual purpose type, high quality of milk and beef, hardiness and also the fact that it is a breed with a long history. I hope that more people will become aware of them, so that they can become a little more common here.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:19 am

Height-wise with cows Beryl, I've got all sorts, but the ones in the middle are all around 42.1/2" at the withers. I've got one who will be over the limit at the rump but is OK I think at the withers (just measured her very roughly), very long back legs. As for the bull, I understand Redberry Prince is right on the limit for a bull and having had him here I can compare, and my main bull Joseph is similar in conformation but smaller and shorter.

Size at the moment is OK for butchers. But no smaller, otherwise there would be a lot of cows about with no use out there, which is also big worry. That's what I think anyhow.

Steers at 24-28 months are the same as all the others I have seen stats for, around 180-220 kg, which means (very roughly) about 350-400kg liveweight.

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:15 am

We may all be getting things in a knot over nothing. What do we call big and small? Are our goals so different?

Before quoting figures I would like to say that Australian heights are measured across the point-of-hip bones, while standing square on concrete, because that area remains constant no matter what the gender of the animal, where the head is held, or if the back is tense.

My ideal bull is 42 to 44 inches, and my ideal cow is 40 to 42 inches, & definitely no shorts. We do have a couple of smaller cows but I cringe when it comes to their turn for AI, not because they have any difficulty calving, but because my back is getting too old. We do have a couple of 43 inch cows, and they are a good bit taller than the 2 yo bull. All the other cows are within our ideal range.

How do these heights differ from other people's requirements?

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:42 pm

This illustrates the problem. Clive is quoting a cow size that which I would prefer for the bull. In the case of Redberry Prince – at three years he was already 1068lbs with a Rump height 46” An average weight for an AngusxHereford steer at 2 years I found quoted at 1068lbs.
What any cattle owner chooses to do on their own farm is their decision. My belief is that short of anarchy, a breed Society should have strict ideas on conformation and performance. In the case of the Dexter I would like to think that it adhered, as far as possible, to what came out of Ireland, in order to retain the valuable characteristics that accompanied it. Any changes in those genes means sacrificing Dexter attributes for foreign ones, and not simply the ones of your choice. My argument Kirk is that my little cow seemed to fulfil the demands of a wide variety of purchasers, as well as my own, without meddling.

Anna · Post by **Anna** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:27 pm

What does the Brittish standard say about height and weight?

The Dexter Cattle Society website says "with the average weight of a cow being some 300 - 350 Kg's and standing 92cm - 107cm at the shoulder." Is that to be considered as a standard? Do you find it too wide?