Organic or Not Organic

[Broomcroft]

Most livestock farmers are not organic (are they?), and a lot of livestock people seem to be not in favour, yet others are passionate about it. Egon Ronay says it's a "con", and if you watched Hugh Fernley-Whittingstall last night, he used the word organic sometimes every few seconds. It was almost ridiculous. That for me, detracted from what was to me a good program because I don't like being manipulated.

Anyhow, whatever anyone thinks, it appears that it is becoming a huge marketing feature and whilst I personally think it doesn't address the main contemporary issues hardly at all, the power of it is a fact and is with us.

It was nice to hear the brother and sister running the farm in Shropshire, the oldest organic farm in the country I think, Fordhall is it called?, saying on the radio that organic was not as important as just getting good food from a local farm, organic or not.

I've also heard it said that the head of the Soil Association now has a bad reputation in the food industry for constantly linking organic with health, and that he is harming industry. This is what Hugh FW was doing all last night, to be honest to my annoyance. I felt he was being paid £100 every time he mentioned the word. Not that I am against organic, I am not, but I am against being misled like that. We would probably be organic if we didn't have so many weeds, and may still go for it.

Just wondered what your thoughts were on the organic issue because I don't know what to think.

[Rob R]

Yes, so many weeds, and non-organic farms are notorious for having eliminated all their weeds aren't they?

Seriously though, there is a difference between the organic principles & organic certification, especially if you start shipping in 'organic' foods from abroad at a huge fuel cost. We farm organically but the scale & nature of our business doesn't make organic certification a viable option. We are members of the Wholesome Food Assocation though, which is a pledge to farm organically & allow the customer to judge our methods for themselves. It's much like Joel Salatin's 'Beyond Organic' approach at Polyface Farms.

The need for an organic 'label' only becomes important when the producer loses contact with the consumer, and the further away from the producer, the greater your trust in the label.

I also notice on the HFW programme that he stated at the beginning that all the meat would come from his farm, and then later he was seen opening a plastic tray containing chicken breasts- they didn't look home produced, but that's another thing.

The way the industry is going there will be a greater polar shift towards both intensive & organic, depending upon the bent of the individual producer, with little room for those in the middle ground to make a profit. I'm all for 100% grass fed beef, but there is grass fed & their is grass fed- if the crop in question has taken as much nitrogen to get it going as an intensive cereal crop, the environmental benefits are rather diminished.

The health benefits are debatable, but the environmental/biodiversity benefits of organic/beyond organic are, in my opinion, far more important.

Click this link to listen to this edition of the BBC Radio 4 The Food Programme

[Martin]

Organic is a form of utopia, jumping through all the hoops is not easy and I for one will not be doing so and I doubt whether too many dexter breeders will bother. Reduced stocking rates, clean grazing and no wormers and modern day medicines make it difficult for most and imposible for others. We can all do our bit to be as environmentally friendly as possible, by being carefull with sprays, fertiliser and drugs, I for for one will use wormers, antibiotics when neccessary fertiliser when there is a need, and spray when the weed burden becomes too high. I will do all of these in a responsible maner as each one is expensive and even more so when not justified economically.
I have no problem with those amongst us that are or wish to be organic, each to his own. It will always be a nich market and certain people will want to supply it, but if the facts are considered, ie lower stocking rate, lower yeilds etc, a growing world population, world wheat stocks getting smaller every year, can we really expect to supply all needs if we where all organic?
Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.

[Sylvia]

I am in full agreement with Martin's comments.

In addition, I have often wondered if those who are so dewy-eyed about organic vegetables ever stop to think exactly what they have been grown in.

[Inger]

Its an ecconomical fact that if you can farm in a way that means you don't have to use as much drench, spray and fertiliser, you're going to make more money. Used wisely, when the need is proven, through FECs and soil testing, we can still acheive healthy herds and fertile soil. I don't like weeds taking over the farm, so we spot spray or grub them out, whichever's easier. I'm not interested in paying huge sums to become certified, but I don't mind using a few of the organic principles. It makes sense really.

By being careful with how we use our drenches and chemicals, we can go a long way towards reducing any of the bad side effects of overuse. Like worms becoming resistant to drenches and phosphates running off the hills and poluting the streams and rivers. Not to mention harming the worms and soil microbes that we need to grow good grasses. We're very selective in the weeds we spray as well. Most of the herbs make good grazing for our Wiltshires and Dexters. We only spray gorse, ragwort, thistle, woolly nightshade (which grows to tree height on our place) and tea tree, which is threatening to take over the hillsides again. Everything else is food for something.

I'm only drenching our calves once when they are weaned and that's about it for their lifetime, unless an individual looks under the weather. Then I treat that individual. If we can build up their immune systems, they can fight off a lot of worms and things without needing to be drenched.

The individual sheep that need drenching too often, get eaten at our place and we try to only breed from the worm tolerant sheep if we have the choice. It takes a few years of culling to build up the average tolerance levels in a flock though. A bit difficult when they're a rare breed and you haven't many to start with.

[Rob R]

What if you remove the idea among people that organic has to be expensive? What if we build up productivity through the soils rather than imported chemicals & other inputs? As Inger points out, certain chemicals are very powerful tools that could have been used to great effect but on the whole we, as a society, have wasted these tools & made them less powerful as a result, believing that we are eliminating costs, as opposed to shifting them to elsewhere around the globe. The idea that intensive, non-organic agriculture is better placed to feed the world is wholly flawed. The world has enough food to feed us all, but the problem is that we in the West don't share our food or technology very easily with those who can't pay for it.

Once you remove the economic bias then organic is the sound way to feed the world & increases the sustainability of nations, particularly in the developing world- if a man has the [organic] skills & knowledge to produce his own food (that he can pass on to the next generation), then he is set up for life. If he is reliant upon a multinational in the developed world to provide him with the patented elixir to produce & protect his food, he loses his power.

In the western world 'organic' has become a status symbol, owned & controlled, but in many parts of the world it is a very different issue.

[Broomcroft]

We are doing the the same as you all. Minimum weedkiller etc, probably like most people who have Dexters at least. But I was told by the Soil Association rep that we couldn't use weedkiller at all if we were organic! That flawed me and that was the end of our venture into organic. He told us to blitz the living daylights out of the weeds before applying and hope it would last 10 years before we had a problem. Great confidence builder that was!

We are ex-arable and ex-horse stud, so weeds are our big issue for some many years to come yet. We are controlling them with almost zero weedkiller, but we have to use some, and next year I may have to spray one big field for reasons I won't go into here.

Perhaps there is a lot of misunderstanding about organic? It seems from what has been written so far that I do certainly. Can you use weedkiller at all if you are organic for example? Was the Soil Assoc man correct? Not even spot treat he said.

My grass-man said he was having to develop a special seed mix for his oldest organic customer (24 years organic I think) because his farm was completely innundated with weeds and he was in a horrible mess. It's all really off-putting which is a shame because my heart wuld be in the right direction like most people but it seems just a load of barriers.

[Rob R]

We were told that we really weren't big enough to register organic- which seems rather contrary to what organic is supposed to be about. Your experience is indicative of the attitude towards organic in this country- it's all about the label. Being organic is also restrictive in many ways, and I think if you can farm in a way that satisfies your ethical/ecological stance, and can easily communicate this to your customers, then there really is no need to go organic. The thing that really gets to me is when people start to sell themselves as 'organic' but are being less then honest in order to make a quick buck- whatever you do, do it honestly & people can choose if they want to eat your produce or not.

Interestingly the one limiting factor for organic growth at the moment is not demand, but supply- there just aren't enough certified inputs for farms, and the organic certifying bodies are under greater pressure to increase the amount of non-organic inputs allowed in organic systems. For some inputs I believe the minimum inclusion rate is currently only 50%!

[Martin]

Organic on your own farm may be a possibility, buying in organic inputs is another matter. Conventional wheat yields are currently at about 3 - 4 tons an acre, organic wheat at 1 - 2 tons an acre, doesn't take a genius to work out the economics, or the disaster that would be upon us if everyone went organic. Organic ingredients for feed is prohibitively expensive for the above reasons. A five year conversion period when yields are dropping and crops still sold as conventional put off many arable farmers, and keep organic feed prices high. There are many organic farmers now that are considering their future as they have found there is no pot of gold at the end of the organic rainbow.
If you have a sick cow wait two or three days before getting clearance to use the neccessary medicines, not for me. My cows welfare is far more important to me than a piece of paper saying that I was certified organic.
Dexter owners selling meat should consider if they could charge more for their product. If not why bother making things difficult for yourself and increase your costs for no extra return. Rather, do what you are doing now, be responsible with your inputs and tell your customers the truth about what you do and how you farm.
Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.

[Broomcroft]

If you have a sick cow wait two or three days before getting clearance to use the neccessary medicines, not for me. My cows welfare is far more important to me than a piece of paper saying that I was certified organic.

What! You have to wait to administer medicines?

[Martin]

If what the vet recomends is not on their list of 'approved' products then yes you do!

Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.

[Rob R]

If you have a sick cow wait two or three days before getting clearance to use the neccessary medicines, not for me. My cows welfare is far more important to me than a piece of paper saying that I was certified organic.

What! You have to wait to administer medicines?

No, that's wrong. You wouldn't wait to treat animals but you must clearly identify treated animals & record details of treatment which must then be approved by the certification body before the animal, or its products, can be sold as organic.

[Woodmagic]

I agree with Rob it is the environmental/biodiversity benefits which are of prime importance. The idea floated by the big internationals out to make a profit from their GMs and chemical killers, that the world cannot feed itself unless it goes down their route is simply self-justification.
My next-door neighbour used to spray his docks regularly every year; I cut mine when I moved in next door. I had one field literally covered in them, but in later years my dock problem virtually disappeared. My neighbours wife visited me and took back some of my dock beetles but they wouldn’t survive on their farm, presumably killed off by all the sprays. I sowed oats in the dock-infested field and they made wonderful silage. Years later, when I moved to my present farm I tried to repeat the oats, but they were attacked by all sorts of pests which I had never come across. My sentiment is that modern farming creates some of the problems it then tries to invent quick answers for.

[Inger]

You're so right WoodMagic. The insecticides are so over-used, that bugs have become immuned to the sprays over the generations (and there are plenty of generations in a very short time), then the sprays that we could have used, are no longer effective. Look at antibiotics as an example. They have been so overused and incorrectly used (by people not bothering to take the entire course of tablets or inappropriately prescribed) in the human population, that some nasties, like Tb are becoming immuned to the drugs that used to kill it. Its got to the stage in NZ, where known cases are followed up each day to ensure the tablets are being taken properly and if they aren't, the patient is hospitalised until the course of treatment is completed. We can't risk super Tb bugs in NZ as we have too many races here without a genetic natural immunity to Tb.

If more mechanical means of weed control was used, like strategic grazing, pasture topping and just grubing them by hand, it would be possible to reduce weeds to an acceptable level. Yes it would take a few years, but a little and often works in the vege garden, so why not on the farm? Yes the acreage is larger, but one or two paddocks could be tackled each year. Just leaving them because you can't spray them on an organic farm, really isn't an option in my book.

I know of people who take a gruber with them when they go out to check on their animals and dig out a few weeds as they go. When you think of how often you walk around your farm each year, it all adds up. If one paddock is particularly bad, then the old method of topping the heads before the weeds can seed each year, would still work. We need to go back to the methods in use before sprays became all the vogue. If they used to work for so many centuries, then why can't they work now? ??? Why do big agricultural farms think that chemical sprays are the only way to go? Also, There are plenty of natural worm killers that we can use on our animals (willows, flax, etc), couldn't we try using those first and then if we find that we have a more determined type of worm, then we bring out the big guns. Using the strong stuff right from the start, doesn't give us much left in the arsenal once the worms develop a resistance to it. After all, animals were coping with worms, by eating the right worm killing plants, long before humans started farming them.

We have to start working with nature, instead of thumping it with all sorts of chemicals that cause heaps of environmental side effects we never intended when we started trying to fix a problem. If we can be a little more judicous with our weed, worms and soil deficiency treatments, we might be able to get things back into more of a balance.

I don't think organic mono-cultural crop farming is ever going to be a goer, because you need a mix of plants in the system to stop bugs going crazy at the acres of food that some huge cropping farms give them. By breaking up the crops into smaller areas, there is less chance of bugs spreading out in all directions. It'll slow them down anyway. I can't see companion planting taking off in a big way on those sorts of farms though. :laugh:

In many poor countries, traditional farming methods were swept aside as being uneconomical, by the big multi-national chemical companies, until years later it was realised that those old traditional farming methods were the best way of reducing bug infestation and soil erosion. When will we learn eh? Small, mixed purpose farms are actually kinder to the environment and they make more work for more people. Perhaps the increase in Small holdings is people's reaction against big farming companies? A return to a more senible way of farming. I just wish it could be more economical as well.

[Rob R]

You'd be amazed how, just ten years ago, virtually everyone was telling me that nothing would grow if I didn't use nitrogen & herbicides. They also said I would never make anything with Dexters. Without traditional breeds, 'organic' farming methods & direct sales I would not be working in farming today.

I don't like handling chemicals & I am certainly not going to risk my health doing so, so that the market can pay me next to nothing for ther privilege. Reading the Farmers Guardian this week warns that farmers need an extra 71p per kg liveweight to make lamb production worthwhile post-CAP reform. There are also reports of Paraquat being withdrawn now- a product I was using ten years ago that was then considered safe.