Bull Age - When does he start losing his ability?

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:03 pm

Hi

I am looking at a new bull I like but he's not a youngster. At what age do you think they loose their breeding ability? He would need to go to quite a few cows and I would want to use him for 2 years, no more.

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:29 pm

I expect other contributors will have more experience on older bulls than I have since I never buy one in, but I know Hedgehog is still working at eleven, and I have known a number of cows breeding regularly up to the age of twenty, and assume a male would be capable of as long a working life as a female.

JamsHundred · Post by **JamsHundred** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:43 pm

I gave an older bull to a new breeder as I wanted him to live out his life rather than be butchered, and she is still using him at the age of 14, and one of my herd bulls is 11, another is 10.

Rob R · Post by **Rob R** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:37 pm

Depends more on his physical health than anything else, they slow down a bit as they get older but unless he's stressed or has some other problem, he shoiuld still have the ability. (We are really talking about the bull here, aren't we Clive? ??? )

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:13 pm

Most bulls are not used beyond 5 - 7 years for several reasons:

1. They are more prone to injury (they have to put a lot of weight on just their hind legs) and while you can tolerate an injured cow for a couple of months, an injured bull can devastate your breeding plans for the year.

2. Bulls are under a lot of stress due to managing all of their females. This stress is wearing - Imagine having 25 wives all at the same time.

3. Bull hormones are hard on the system (heard of "Roid Rage"?).

4. Bull reproductive organs are out there, just waiting for injury.

5. Sperm quality reduces with age.

6. Bull libido can drop. If a 15 year old cow's libido drops, it's no big deal (a bull doesn't care if a cow doesn't feel like breeding as long as she'll stand still). If a 9 year old bull's libido drops, you'll miss some/all breedings.

7. Older bulls can become grumpy old men - harder to manage.

8. Many folks feel they can get better genetics today, than they can get from an older bull from 10 years ago (when the old bull was bred and calved). Does this bull have an even better son, grandson, or great-grandson from a line of excellent dams? If he doesn't, then was he really all that good of a sire?

If I were going to use an older bull, I would watch closely for re-cycling and I would have a back-up bull ready to come in.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:07 am

We are really talking about the bull here, aren't we Clive?

I knew I should have gone to a doctor and said it was a friend. :D

My other option is to use my own young bulls. I have kept 3 entire. One is going in the freezer because I don't like his temperament and I can see that when he is older he may be a problem even though he's out of a nice cow and by a nice Elite bull.

That leaves me with a red one and a black one that are by my stock bull Joseph out of what I consider two of my best cows. Both young bulls have been kept as the best, as far as we can tell by looking, out of all my youngsters, the rest were castrated.

But as my herd is now made up of a large numbers of their half-sisters, would you use these on their half-sisters? And would you use them on the mothers?

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:46 am

Broomcroft wrote:
That leaves me with a red one and a black one that are by my stock bull Joseph out of what I consider two of my best cows. Both young bulls have been kept as the best, as far as we can tell by looking, out of all my youngsters, the rest were castrated.

But as my herd is now made up of a large numbers of their half-sisters, would you use these on their half-sisters? And would you use them on the mothers?

I would absolutely have no problem breeding one or both of these young bulls on half-sisters and their mothers. I would also have no problem breeding Joseph (your herd bull) on his own daughters (especially those daughters that don't share any of Joseph's weaker points). This will start to build some homozygosity (identical pairs of genes) and will bring great consistency to your herd. You'll need to watch for any detrimental genes that might pair up, but culls make fine eating. There will also be some excellent genes that will pair up and you will want to watch for these to produce replacement heifers and future bulls. Over time, this method will help you produce a strain of animals that suits your eye and has your stamp on it. In thirty years, you might be the next "Woodmagic", but with your own preferred features, of course.

I wouldn't make this same recommendation to someone with a couple of pet cows in the backyard and a tender heart unable to cope with the occasional problem and culling. Remember, inbreeding doesn't cause problems, it exhibits existing problems, allowing you to deal with them rather than hide them.

One thing I would watch out for, is if you have any recurring conformational/behavioral weaknesses, you have to be careful or you can make those weaknesses homozygous. Let's say that the dam of one of these bulls has too much white in the wrong places. If you breed the son back on mom, you might double up on this extra white and "fix" that trait (make it homozygous and consistently recurring). Just catch and cull those problems in the early going before they become "fixed" traits. The goal is to "fix" all the good traits that you like and not "fix" any bad traits.

With a rather large herd and an outlet for your culls, you are in a unique and enviable position to make some real genetic progress over time. I would strongly urge that you have some long-time breeders help you evaluate your herd going forward to give you input on culling and selection, but if it's in matters of personal preference, go with your preference.

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:25 am

I have used several older bulls over the years.
Aiskew Juglans Nigra became infertile at c. 10 years old.
Hill Farm Thomas went on OTMS at c. 15 years old because both I & my neighbour got thoroughly fed up with him trashing fences to play with next door's cows. Even coming 2nd in a run in with the accompanying Limousin bull didn't cool his ardour or affect his performance.
Knotting Leo 1st is the current senior sire aged c. 13 years old.
Zanfara Lawrence went to a new home aged 9 years.
Personally, I prefer older bulls. Plenty of progeny on the ground to give an idea of what they throw. Experienced, so know when the cow is ready & don't spend all day hassling her as she comes into heat, as youngsters can do. Well handled by humans, particularly if they have been hired out frequently, so good to catch & load. Also got to the stage where they have nothing left to prove, so have outgrown the tedious teenage stage of "look at me, I'm a scary bull" but can depress the pretensions of the young males with a single flick of the head. Saves me having to exert authority - I'm herd boss, senior bull is subordinate to me, so junior bull 2 steps down the pecking order.

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:12 pm

Louisa Gidney wrote:Saves me having to exert authority - I'm herd boss, senior bull is subordinate to me, so junior bull 2 steps down the pecking order.

Enjoyed this practical information on older bulls! It sounds like you have some good experience. Would enjoy hearing how you deal with exerting authority in many various situations. For example, a bull standing sideways with head lowered and growling and various other situations.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:58 pm

In thirty years, you might be the next "Woodmagic", but with your own preferred features, of course.

For my herd Kirk, to compare to Woodmagic is like putting a beefburger next to a fillet steak, but I understand what you are saying. There is a lot of Woodmagic in most of my stock going back 2-4 generations. I think in thirty years time I'll actually be in the Happy Hunting Grounds looking down on you (or up?) :D

Thanks for responses. It is very clear and I am going to consider my options carefully around what you have said Kirk because of numbers, closed herd, my situation. I can be very, very fussy about what I keep and will be able to beef those that aren't up to scratch, which will be most and in addition that suits my business side to perfection.

I did accidentally put Joseph to one of his daughters and the result was, to my eyes, one of my best looking heifers.

I have quite a few of a type I particularly like, and quite a few I don't. I think I would know what to cull and what not to cull and will seek help from friends.

The one thing that is paramount to me though, is invisible...and that's the taste. Not volume of beef, just taste. I have eaten a lot of Dexter and it has all been good to superb. But just one animal was on another planet altogether. The meat looked totally as usual, it's whole life was side by side with all the others, it was the same size (med to slightly large). No more or less marbled. Butchered and hung exactly as another steer on the same day at the same abattoir. It was nothing less than stunning and by a large margin, and I wish I knew why. The mother cow is my favourite cow as it happens and her steers always look fit.

Can I ask one more question? How young would you put a bull to work, anyone?

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:51 pm

Broomcroft wrote:
I have eaten a lot of Dexter and it has all been good to superb. But just one animal was on another planet altogether. The mother cow is my favourite cow as it happens and her steers always look fit.

Can I ask one more question? How young would you put a bull to work, anyone?

It might be possible that there is a genetic component to the better taste of this individual good tasting animal and it might be possible that the dam has those genes. Since she is your favorite, it might be worth doing some line breeding around her. Breed one of her sons on her, and create a bull out of that breeding that's doubled up on her genetics. Then use him on a good number of cows. It might also be possible that a bunch of environmental circumstances (time of year, certain pasture, better hay, etc.) fell into place just right, creating the perfect storm of flavor. Since the cow is your favorite (assuming one of your best, with few flaws) line breeding around her will still be beneficial even if the flavor doesn't have a strongly heritable genetics link.

Concerning breeding age of young bulls, I did a ton of research on the topic and found that the average age of puberty and fertility in smaller British breeds is about 10-11 months. It really depends on size and nutrition. The closer they are to a good percentage of their genetic potential full size, the earlier they breed. Also, scrotal size makes a big difference. They typically need at least 25-26cm scrotal circumference and growing to start fertility (larger breeds need at least 28-29 cm).

We purchased an underfed little 7 month old bull several years ago. He was one of the first homozygous polled red bulls on the planet and he had a month long journey to get to our place, including temporary boarding halfway. He was 7 months old and needed him to breed 8 heifers hopefully by the time he was 10-11 months (in order to have calves before the dead of summer the next year). I pumped the nutrition in him and measured his SC (scrotal circumference) weekly, praying for a miracle. He bred all 8 heifers in a three week period starting at about 10.5 months and his scrotal circumference was about 27cm at the time.

My research also told me that a young bull should only go on as many cows as he is months old (up until about age 3), to keep from harming him and to make certain he can do the job. So a 12 month old, should have no more than 12 open heifers/cows, while a 18 month old should have no more than 18 open cows for good success and a fairly tight calving period. Bulls (especially young bulls) need to be in top condition (without being over fat) prior to breeding. If you're going to push a young bull, watch his condition and hand supplement if necessary. By the way, I've got a 12 month old bull (with an outstanding SC of 34cm) on five of his half-sisters and an aunt right now and he seems to be doing the job nicely.

Here's a link to an article that might be helpful:

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2002 ... T190.shtml

Rob R · Post by **Rob R** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:39 pm

Broomcroft wrote:
We are really talking about the bull here, aren't we Clive?
I knew I should have gone to a doctor and said it was a friend. :D

Kirk's advice re: inbreeding will also be frowned upon in certain situations :D

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:18 am

There is a noticeable visual difference in the youngsters out of my favourite cow. And that is that her calves have a little more muscle tone than the others. They are slightly fitter. I suspect that what was (to my taste buds) the exceptional flavour, may have had something to do with this possibly, in the same way that a wild deer tastes quite different to a farmed deer, or salmon or rabbit. But there are other reasons for the differences, feed especially in these examples.

Anyhow that is the angle I am interested in. As I say, I want to breed for taste, NOT volume of beef. So, I could end up with stock that is not quite what you expect from a beef herd in a few years time.

Thanks Kirk. You're very clear. I'll post some pics or a video when it stops raining (next year?). I don't know what's happening in the US, but over in the UK the situation is getting dire flood-wise. It's very worrying.

Rob - Keep taking the pills and you'll be fine.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:42 am

Well this certainly provides a different way of assessing a bull. Please can you line up steaks from his offspring so I can assess the taste? And can I just slip this tape measure round your scrotum, mate?

Regarding older bulls, 9 year old Vatch Apollo is still going strong and retaining a gentlemanly attitude. He does what I ask him (move to a new field, come into the barn, walk into the crush etc) but then I don't ask him to do things he would not like ( leave all your cows and come out of that field by yourself etc). On balance I'm inclined (on my limited experience) to have a preference for older bulls who have been properly brought up. As Louise says, they feel they have nothing to prove.

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:31 am

Specifically in response to Kirk's request, I use the "voice of doom", when I say "NO! BAD! OUT! B***ER OFF! DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT" etc, anyone not immediately desisting will be coming home in plastic bags pronto. To be fair, it has never come to that. In fact I cannot say that any of the bulls I have had over the years has shown me threatening or aggressive behaviour. Either that or I fail to recognise it as such, which would discountenance them anyway. I rarely use, or carry, a stick/crook but have been known to run after one aggravating individual shouting "stand still so I can thump you", or words to that effect. Naturally this didn't happen but he certainly ran scared. I do make sure that any youngster who goes through the "I'm scary" routine is taught that he is in fact not scary at all. This can range from just standing in front of him telling him "who are you trying to kid" to a regular tap on the nose with crook or welly boot if he puts his head down, until he learns to stop doing it. I think a lot of it is body language, which seems to be intuitive. I try and radiate an aura of "don't mess with me" around the bulls & rams.