I've just looked at the Scheme details in the bulletin and to be honest, it isn't really Elite, is it? It's a good scheme but fairly basic, even at Stage II only six calves are inspected. Surely that's not enough? As Woodmagic says, any bull will have six decent calves. It's described simply as a Bull Scheme in the bulletin, which seems more appropriate, where does the Elite come from? Am I missing something?
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think it's great, but not Elite. Or is Stage II where the Elite comes in? The Bulletin doesn't mention the word.
I think probably the bulls on there are good in reality and throw constantly good stock, but I would prefer to see the Scheme tightened up dramatically, and soon before a duffer gets in if it's not already too late. Or certainly at Stage II to way beyond six calves. I'd want to see far more than that.
Elite Bull Scheme - Does no one care!
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Broomcroft
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It started out as the Elite Bull, I am not sure at what point the Elite was dropped. The important thing regarding his progeny is that it must be the lot. . If you hide away the poor one, you hide evidence that he can certainly produce more like it. Certainly if he is being used extensively, as many as possible should be stipulated, the idea of six is that not all bulls are A.I., and in a small herd you may have to wait a long time, Whatever number is decided upon, it must be every calf sired up to that point.
It is also essential that the dam is properly assessed, I agree with Inger she must be outstanding, which is why I suggest the first inspection should take place when the bull calf is six months, since one can see what sort of a job she has made of rearing him, up to that age she will be largely responsible, and she should still be milking well enough to judge her all round. At present the scheme does little more than shows have achieved over the years, and it is deception to suggest it is doing more.
It is also essential that the dam is properly assessed, I agree with Inger she must be outstanding, which is why I suggest the first inspection should take place when the bull calf is six months, since one can see what sort of a job she has made of rearing him, up to that age she will be largely responsible, and she should still be milking well enough to judge her all round. At present the scheme does little more than shows have achieved over the years, and it is deception to suggest it is doing more.
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Broomcroft
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Genetics are a tricky thing. I've had the ugliest cow in the herd produce the highest weight gaining calf and while being burdened with arthritis. I have another cow which wouldn't put on weight and didn't calve until her fourth year, produce a very well grown steer this season, with a very acceptable weight gain. Her udder has developed into a well formed and good producing asset. So much so, that I'm having to change my mind about putting her in the freezer once she's given me a heifer calf.
It seems to me that the value of a cow or bull, lies in their ability to produce good offspring, not their external looks. A breeder's ability to choose the right bull, for their cow(s), is what increases the chances of producing a better animal in the next generation, than the animals he/she starts out with. The proof is in the pudding.
Thankfully weight gain and milk production can be measured, giving us more tools to make the decision to keep a cow, or not to keep her. Keeping track of her offspring's attributes adds to the data that can be used to make decisions.
Reading a DNA profile may not tell you if an animal is suited to your farm or farming style. Only trial and error will tell you that. I started with a wide range of genetics in my female lines. Most of one line have had to be sold on to more easy going country, as they couldn't cope with our property. They are now producing lovely calves on their new farm, where the grass grows better than ours.
Other cows which certainly wouldn't win any beauty contests, have turned out to carry a gene which enables them to maintain condition and still grow a good calf, even in Winters where the grass wasn't growing much. They're the type of cows I need. Good producers on poor grazing. If I can improve their offspring's looks, with the right bull, I will, but their calf producing ability is what I value most.
Each breeder will have slightly different aims in their breeding and I'd like to see enough leeway in the bulls that can be registered, to enable breeders to produce what they need in the cattle they grow. After all, every farm is slightly different. So each breeder must breed what will be best for their farm.
It seems to me that the value of a cow or bull, lies in their ability to produce good offspring, not their external looks. A breeder's ability to choose the right bull, for their cow(s), is what increases the chances of producing a better animal in the next generation, than the animals he/she starts out with. The proof is in the pudding.
Thankfully weight gain and milk production can be measured, giving us more tools to make the decision to keep a cow, or not to keep her. Keeping track of her offspring's attributes adds to the data that can be used to make decisions.
Reading a DNA profile may not tell you if an animal is suited to your farm or farming style. Only trial and error will tell you that. I started with a wide range of genetics in my female lines. Most of one line have had to be sold on to more easy going country, as they couldn't cope with our property. They are now producing lovely calves on their new farm, where the grass grows better than ours.
Other cows which certainly wouldn't win any beauty contests, have turned out to carry a gene which enables them to maintain condition and still grow a good calf, even in Winters where the grass wasn't growing much. They're the type of cows I need. Good producers on poor grazing. If I can improve their offspring's looks, with the right bull, I will, but their calf producing ability is what I value most.
Each breeder will have slightly different aims in their breeding and I'd like to see enough leeway in the bulls that can be registered, to enable breeders to produce what they need in the cattle they grow. After all, every farm is slightly different. So each breeder must breed what will be best for their farm.
Inger
NZ
NZ
Trouble is Inger, we are not working on a level playing field. Your Dexters are graded up, in the case of a pure Dexter, one of the virtues of the breed is that it will thrive and do in very poor situations, an animal that will only perform on good ground is not a good Dexter.
Whatever the breed, if it is born and reared on good ground, it is unlikely to do so well, if it is suddenly transported on to a poor farm. In reverse, if you take an animal from a poor farm and move it to better conditions it is likely to do exceptionally well. Allowing for such circumstances I would expect any Dexter to cope well on poor land.
The real virtue of the breed is that it has inherited the ability to ‘do’, through surviving centuries of poor conditions, and what today would be considered neglect in the Irish hills. An animal that didnt calve until it reached four years of age would not in my eyes make bull breeder. It is performance that should count, and I expect a Dexter to thrive on the side of a mountain, or she doesn’t deserve the name.
Whatever the breed, if it is born and reared on good ground, it is unlikely to do so well, if it is suddenly transported on to a poor farm. In reverse, if you take an animal from a poor farm and move it to better conditions it is likely to do exceptionally well. Allowing for such circumstances I would expect any Dexter to cope well on poor land.
The real virtue of the breed is that it has inherited the ability to ‘do’, through surviving centuries of poor conditions, and what today would be considered neglect in the Irish hills. An animal that didnt calve until it reached four years of age would not in my eyes make bull breeder. It is performance that should count, and I expect a Dexter to thrive on the side of a mountain, or she doesn’t deserve the name.
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wagra dexters
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Cattle of any sort did not evolve in these lands, so we have had to accommodate accordingly. Inger sounds to be running on marginal country, as are we.
It seems that certain types do better here, can feed a calf longer, while still holding her own condition. 90% of our stock are full-blood, the other 10% up-graded to pure-bred, and none of them are shortleg. The rangier cows don't do so well, and they are not the up-grades.
If we took them all down to the coast, no frosts, lush plains country, the same cows would do better than those that don't do so well up here. The same cows would have their same faults, and the same cows would be fault free.
Bull mothers need to be fairly special, as do bull sires, as do the rest of their families. Good Luck.
It seems that certain types do better here, can feed a calf longer, while still holding her own condition. 90% of our stock are full-blood, the other 10% up-graded to pure-bred, and none of them are shortleg. The rangier cows don't do so well, and they are not the up-grades.
If we took them all down to the coast, no frosts, lush plains country, the same cows would do better than those that don't do so well up here. The same cows would have their same faults, and the same cows would be fault free.
Bull mothers need to be fairly special, as do bull sires, as do the rest of their families. Good Luck.
Graham Beever & Margaret Weir
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
That's true Woodmagic, but since we are grading up, we need to find useful genes amongst the females we have in our herd. Sometimes it takes until they produce offspring and see how they do, before you can make a decision of their worth.
It'll be years yet, before we can keep any home grown bulls and if we take temperament into account. Most likely not from this female line.
It'll be years yet, before we can keep any home grown bulls and if we take temperament into account. Most likely not from this female line.
Inger
NZ
NZ
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Kirk- Cascade Herd US
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I'm curious about the unsatisfactory temperament. What behaviors are you dissatisfied with, and what is the ideal you are looking for? What would you like less of and more of?Inger wrote:It'll be years yet, before we can keep any home grown bulls and if we take temperament into account. Most likely not from this female line.
Kirk
This particular cow could have given pony club ponies, lessons on how to jump fences or gates, when she was a heifer. :laugh: Now that she's had two calves, she's lost her youthful figure and no longer jumps fences. She's a lot quieter too. She was dehorned shortly after we bought her, as she knew how to use them. Fortunately Klara has become a useful member of the herd and if her udder and calf growth is anything to go by, a heifer calf from her, would be most useful. But I'm not inclined to select a male from her future offspring - unless it was exceptional (stranger things have happened) and the intervening sires had done some magic with her conformation. Her steered calf looks nice though;
I don't have a more recent picture of him. I should take one.
I don't have a more recent picture of him. I should take one.
Inger
NZ
NZ
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Mark Bowles
- Site Admin
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Comments from most of you seem favouable towards the Scheme, im sure there must be more people out there that would want the scheme to succeed,well i would hope anyway!
So where do we go from here, the DCS promote it better and we push on with it, or it continues to fade away and nearly 10 years has passed and the society still hasnt improved the quality of bulls within the herdbook.
Mark
So where do we go from here, the DCS promote it better and we push on with it, or it continues to fade away and nearly 10 years has passed and the society still hasnt improved the quality of bulls within the herdbook.
Mark
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Hi Mark,
We spent a long time at the last council meeting discussing the elite bull scheme.
There are a lot of anomolies to sort out but it would be a great shame if it did fade into oblivion. Sadly there is a very poor uptake at the moment. Does the membership want to identify superior bulls? Are we wasting our time? Should we put it on hold for a while?
The bull scheme co-ordinator, George Godber, who is also your President Elect is going to look at the problems and hopefully sort things out. I am sure he would welcome members comments about the scheme, they would be a great help to him. Please write to him directly so that it is official.
Constructive criticism only please!
As this site is not an official DCS site, it is a private site [which I personally very much appreciate], comments made on it are not necessarily considered by the council. Members need to send their comments directly.
[I am not prepared to publish George's email address on this board in case he gets junk mail, but if you wish to comment by email rather than snailmail send to our DCS secretary and she will forward to George].
Thank you for your favourable comments about online registrations - you have to thank our secretary, Yvonne, for working very hard to get it up and running.
Come on, let's have your input into the bull scheme so that we can go forward with what you want.
We spent a long time at the last council meeting discussing the elite bull scheme.
There are a lot of anomolies to sort out but it would be a great shame if it did fade into oblivion. Sadly there is a very poor uptake at the moment. Does the membership want to identify superior bulls? Are we wasting our time? Should we put it on hold for a while?
The bull scheme co-ordinator, George Godber, who is also your President Elect is going to look at the problems and hopefully sort things out. I am sure he would welcome members comments about the scheme, they would be a great help to him. Please write to him directly so that it is official.
Constructive criticism only please!
As this site is not an official DCS site, it is a private site [which I personally very much appreciate], comments made on it are not necessarily considered by the council. Members need to send their comments directly.
[I am not prepared to publish George's email address on this board in case he gets junk mail, but if you wish to comment by email rather than snailmail send to our DCS secretary and she will forward to George].
Thank you for your favourable comments about online registrations - you have to thank our secretary, Yvonne, for working very hard to get it up and running.
Come on, let's have your input into the bull scheme so that we can go forward with what you want.
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Rob & Alison Kirk
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:59 pm
Hi Mark - Quality of bulls in the Herd Book will not improve until we have a return to bull inspection at registration. Over the last few years Councils have had differing views of how the scheme should be run. It is too costly for the average breeder and not all breeders are able, for one reason or another, to become a bull breeder.
To monitor the progress of a young bull is something that cannot be done overnight. In my experience, it is at least two years before I am happy to use a young bull, then only on half a dozen mature cows, not heifers.
How many breeders want to wait for their bull to become 'Elite?' When you read of people looking for a young bull to serve their cows and then to put him in the freezer, this is not pedigree breeding.
There are only a small number of bulls on the scheme and a larger number being registered, but not being inspected, this is unacceptable to the breed. Heaven only knows what is being used.
We now have a specifically trained team of Bull Inspectors, more competent than before. Why not use them in a way that would improve the breed by inspecting young bulls at registration. At least then we will know that we are using bulls to the breed standard. After that only time will tell whether the bull is suitable for pedigree breeding or not. We could then move forward with a Bull Improvement Scheme.
Maybe it is time for individuals to take this on board and look at improving their own herds, which is how the larger herd societies operate, instead of relying on Council to come up with a scheme that will inevitably be changed after a year or so.
Robert Kirk
Boram Dexters
To monitor the progress of a young bull is something that cannot be done overnight. In my experience, it is at least two years before I am happy to use a young bull, then only on half a dozen mature cows, not heifers.
How many breeders want to wait for their bull to become 'Elite?' When you read of people looking for a young bull to serve their cows and then to put him in the freezer, this is not pedigree breeding.
There are only a small number of bulls on the scheme and a larger number being registered, but not being inspected, this is unacceptable to the breed. Heaven only knows what is being used.
We now have a specifically trained team of Bull Inspectors, more competent than before. Why not use them in a way that would improve the breed by inspecting young bulls at registration. At least then we will know that we are using bulls to the breed standard. After that only time will tell whether the bull is suitable for pedigree breeding or not. We could then move forward with a Bull Improvement Scheme.
Maybe it is time for individuals to take this on board and look at improving their own herds, which is how the larger herd societies operate, instead of relying on Council to come up with a scheme that will inevitably be changed after a year or so.
Robert Kirk
Boram Dexters
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Broomcroft
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Mark Bowles
- Site Admin
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- Location: Leicestershire England
A lot of people keep going on about its not what the bull looks like its his offspring that count, surely the said bull is the offspring!!! they dont appear from nowhere, check out both his parents and their offspring, check out the great grand parents, there are old photos and archive if you are keen, but how many are keen enough?
Also people say about the hidden genes, that may well be so, but if you see the bull then they are the visible genes he has that are available. If he has a straight back or walks well then he surely must pass that on somewhere just the same as if he walks poor or has a high tailset.I think what i am trying to say that, well in my case at least i would prefer the best looking bull i could find than one with a couple of visible faults and say well dont worry about them its his offspring that count.
Does that make sense?
Mark
Also people say about the hidden genes, that may well be so, but if you see the bull then they are the visible genes he has that are available. If he has a straight back or walks well then he surely must pass that on somewhere just the same as if he walks poor or has a high tailset.I think what i am trying to say that, well in my case at least i would prefer the best looking bull i could find than one with a couple of visible faults and say well dont worry about them its his offspring that count.
Does that make sense?
Mark
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Linford Dexters
Webmaster