Pedigree or Commercial

[robin walker]

Hi Dominic , here's the debate . Should we be producing Dexter cattle as a pedigree small breeders cow , showing now and again or should we be producing and promoting pedigree Dexter females /bulls for the purpose of crossing for the commercial market ?. Where do we see Dexters in the next decade ?.

[PorcPrunus NL]

We want to keep our Dexters as pure as possible.
For us a Dexter needs:
- to be pedigree
- being dual-purposal
- gently character
- around 105 cm (41 inch) height (non-short)

[robin walker]

Thank you Nico & Annemeik for your reply , I am please that our overseas breeders are receiving and responding to the topics on the discussion board . It is good to hear from you but I am very surprised and it interests me so far that a breeder from the UK has not entered Into the debate ?.
Maybe Nico & Annemeik we will have the pleasure of meeting with you both , will you be visiting Scotland for the Dexter Cattle Society AGM in October 2013 ?.

[Rob R]

I took one look at the topic yesterday when I was snowed under with meat packing and decided to come back to it...

I think there's a half way house option - breeding pedigree but for a commerical market. We have to avoid falling into the trap of bigger being better (as there are already plenty of big breeds out there) and instead make sure that the difference between cost and revenue is there.

I don't think the Dexter should be the preserve of small holders or hobby breeders, nor should it be an all out 'commercial' animal, as we run the risk of loosing the breed characteristics altogether. If you want to breed bigger cattle a lot of the work has already been done in other breeds, but as a prospect for introducing some hybrid vigour I think the Dexter has some qualities that other breeds would benefit from.

[Broomcroft]

To me, pedigree is about producing a breed that is consistent to a standard. And part of the use/benefit of a pedigree breed is to allow other people to cross with other breeds to produce something else that meets their requirements. Farmers say they get a lot of hybrid vigour and additional growth simply by crossing. I understand 1st cross is "better" than pure, 2nd cross better still, 3rd cross goes back to 1st cross benefits, and thereafter I understand the benefits decrease. That's what I've read and been told by experience cattle farmers. I've only done 1st cross using pedigree Dexters put to pedigree Angus bull. Last year I put my pedigree Dexter to a pedigree Stabiliser, but no calves yet, just about to start. I have also put a few Dangus (Dexter-Angus cross) cows to my Stabiliser bull, so that will be my first venture into 3 breeds-in-one. I have also put a Dexter bull back to Dangus cows to get 3/4 Dexter , 1/4 Angus. Only did this with three cows.

For me, speaking purely personally, Dexters are slightly too small (i.e. the fat steers, "the output") and often not quite enough muscle in the right places. By crossing I have got what I want, i.e. medium-sized fat stock that suit my farm and customer requirements. Neither pure Angus or pure Dexter would fulfil my requirements quite as well, either too big and too small.

But we can only do this thanks to pedigree breeding and standards. Hope that makes sense!

[domsmith]

Oh ahhh!

Well i think you make of cattle want YOU want. As ever with our trials me and Clive are very close! The Angus is too big, too hard on the ground difficult for me to manage. The dexter is just a bit too small. i no longer want to breed just for my butchery. i need a bit of commercial size, so i too have the Dangus.
We will calve 12 ( i think) dangus or dimi (limi *dex) heifer and cows this year. mainly to the angus but an odd one to the dexter. and we will see what we get.
This year i am going to take it all a step further and bring in the AI man and i think i will test the dexter and Dangus with several other breeds. 1 will definately be the the Wagyu for my freezer and anyone else interested. but i like herefords and simmental.
i have no dexter bull at the moment, and i dont think i will be getting one. i think i will be mainly breading for store cattle in the future. and that is purely because my farm is my full time job and i need it to pay.
but you need some pedigree cattle to start from.

to pick on some other points, i cannot see the dexter ever being seen as a commercial cow. they are still sneared at solely because of the size. we all know how they milk and calf but the size will always hold them back in the real world.

i also think if you want a few cows that are fun to keep as pets or an odd one for the freezer, the dexter is the best. the character and qualities of the animal are second to none. i love them.

i intend to cut my number this year and am excited by the prospect of 2 northern sales. i hope to reduce some of my pedigrees and keep a lid on my numbers.

dominic

[Rob R]

But we can only do this thanks to pedigree breeding and standards. Hope that makes sense!

Perfect sense - that's what I was trying to say...

[robin walker]

Thank you guys for the answers , they are exactly as I thought you would come back with . I understand for those of you full time farming that you must experiment to get the best per acre and turn around from birth to finish , it's nice to know that to get where you are that the Dexter was and may always be your premier starting base ?.
I do feel there is room to do both , however I will only ever breed to the standard pure Dexters .

[Kelvin and Lottie James]

We worked with a pedigree Angus herd 30 years ago and they were not much bigger than the Dexter in those days. Some breeders are trying to make the Dexter bigger, but it would spoil the breed to do that.

[Broomcroft]

We worked with a pedigree Angus herd 30 years ago and they were not much bigger than the Dexter in those days. Some breeders are trying to make the Dexter bigger, but it would spoil the breed to do that.

Agree with that 100%. Even the AA I bought to use on my Dexters eventually grew to be just too big. They can't even walk properly any more. Why do they need to be so big?

Keep Dexters small. But having said that, it's also not much good selecting breeding stock just because they stay small. Isn't that just breeding poor animals? Small should be defined as really and truly small, i.e. born small, then grows well (for it's overall size range), and ends up at full age still quite small. Anyone can breed poor doers, and/or keep them on poor grazing, and/or put them in calf early etc. But true small is more difficult.

There is a contradiction in that good, healthy animals generally grow well, poor ones don't. But I suppose it depends on your definition of good. If your main interest is showing, then poor growth might be an advantage in your eyes.

I've always thought that the breed standard is aimed at the wrong end, i.e. full-grown size. With Stabilisers, which is the only example I know of, they do have a full-grown size target that they are not supposed to exceed. But their main control is that the calves should not be over a said weight. Any bull born over 45kgs cannot go into the herd book. That's the end where the control is needed, at the start of life. Or is that how it is for Dexters, may be I'm out of date on the standard?

One that is born very small and grows like crazy makes more sense, to me anyhow.

[Rob R]

One that is born very small and grows like crazy makes more sense to me anyhow.

Me too - unrelated to Dexters but here ya go, a couple of years ago we sold a Jersey x Angus calf that looked terrible but had an amazing appetite, the same day we has a Holstein x Hereford which looked good. The buyers were all muttering about the little black one being a Dexter. Anyway, when they went through the ring the Hereford x about made what it had cost whereas the Angus x turned a good profit.

One problem with the Dexter IMO is that, unlike the Stabliser, few people monitor their growth throughout their lives and the first time they're weighed is on the hook.

[Colin]

Clive/Dom, do you have any facts and figures for comparison yet on deadweights and taste of the beef between pedigreee Dexter, Dangus and Dexter/Stabiliser cross ?

Regards,

Colin

[Broomcroft]

Hi Colin

We've done a lot of Dangus now but not any Stabiliser, they are just about the start calving. The Dangus beef we've had has been excellent and can best be described as better than good quality Angus. Ours has a definite Dexter / grass-fed flavour.

In terms of weight, that's a bit more difficult to compare because we beef Dangus earlier than Dexters. But our Dexters would average say 220kg DW for steers at 27-28 months, and the Dangus steers would average about 260kg DW at 22-24 months. I guess if you left a Dangus steer till 28-30 months you'd be getting up in the 300kg region.

[domsmith]

Apart from a few, nearly all my dangus have been sold as stores through the local market. they got reasonable money as 15 -18 month old 500 -660 each. i have had a couple through the butchery, but i cant give you facts. only the beef was good and sold well.

i have about 30 of them just weaned, so i will see what happens with them. some will be butchered here.

dom

[Colin]

Clive/Dom,

Thanks for the info. So do you produce any pure Dexter beef at all now, or are you entirely Dexter cross beef ? I recall Clive you used to have an Angus and a Dexter bull. What's the feedback from your butchers on Dangus v Dexter ?

Regards,

Colin