Dexters and Beef - Where do we go from here

[Sylvia]

Well, I wish you'd tell me how to breed non-carrier shorts, Inger, because when I tested all my pedigree shorts a while ago they all came back as carriers. I have a mature bull who is non-short (and non-carrier) who is very difficult to classify because he has grown down into his legs (if you know what I mean). I have 2 cross bred cows who are short Dexter size which I didn't test. Our breeding programme has been successful so far in avoiding bulldog calves but I don't see how short, non carriers can be achieved. Small non-shorts are another matter all together. I can see that vigorous selection of small non-shorts could work, but surely the typical sturdiness (beefiness) will be lost ?

[Peter thornton]

Oh Dear
I know I'm on dangerous ground here!
I have a lovely old short cow. 75% of her calves are gangly long legged things that really aren't what I'm trying to breed whilst 25% are "Classic Dexter". I'm going to keep her whatever happens, but surely no serious pedigree breeder would rely on a "deformity" to produce what they are looking for. And that's what we are doing.
We need to gradually get rid of this gene. No one need be forced to get rid of any cows and the society can still register any short legged cows. Just exclude it from all newly registered bulls and insist that all major show winners are tested and found to be non carriers. In my opinion it's the only rational way forward for the society.
Now I'm going to hide........!

[Sylvia]

Before you rush off and hide, Peter, surely it is 'bulldogism' that is the deformity, not dwarfism. Small cows, goats (Pygmy goats), tiny monkeys and marmosets etc etc are not deformed. They are dwarfed because they carry a dwarfing gene. The fact that Dexters also carry a gene which causes catastrophic deformity if it meets another like minded gene is another matter altogether. Or is this the same gene in Dexters. I do know that Pygmy goats are dwarfs and they don't suffer the problems Dexters do.

[Peter thornton]

Sylvia
The problem I have with the gene is that it's not consistent in that you can't reliably breed from it. It also leads (as in my case) to cows being kept that actually don't carry particularily good characteristics when not masked by the gene. Pygmy goats etc are a different case. What's happened there is that a characteristic has been "fixed" in the breed. This is what some breeders have been trying to achieve in Dexters, without using the "dwarf gene". Duncan for example, Beryl Rutherford and (in Cumbria) Veronica Schofield.
Even if we achieve a situation where we only ever get short to non short breeding (therefore elimating bulldogs) then we will have a minority of the calves conforming to the ideal standard. Surely good breeding is all about a certain standard of predicability?
By the way, I'm certainly no expert on genetics and stand to be corrected by anyone who knows more - which means most people!

[Duncan MacIntyre]

The difficulty with the Dexter dwarf situation is that the gene which makes the "traditional" Dexter is the gene which causes bulldog calves. A non carrier Dexter will breed true when mated to another of the same. One which carries one copy of the bulldog gene is a "traditional" shortlegged Dexter. When two of those are mated, the results will be 25% which carry no bulldog genes, they are "longlegged", 50% which carry one copy of the bulldog gene, they are "shortlegged", and 25% are bulldogs. When a non carrier is mated with a carrier, the result is 50% carrier (shortlegged) and 50% non carrier (longlegged). The hereford breed in USA suffered dwarf problems in the early years of the 20th century, and managed to eradicate the problem, but their situation was different - the carriers looked identical to non carriers, and the individuals which carried two copies of the dwarf gene were the dwarfs, which were very small but lived. Their breed society decided to eradicate the problem and took action to do so, despite the fact that the carriers were impossible to distinguish visibly and there was no DNA analysis available. It took years of detective work to root out all the carriers. This is recorded in a book called "The Battle of Bull Runts" by L P McCann, which shows up in second hand book dealers now and then and makes fascinating reading.

I would not wish to spearhead a witch-hunt of short legged dexters, but I am determined to find out if I can breed non bulldog carriers which are of the same sort of height and build as the traditional "shortlegged" Dexter. If this can be done then and only then would there be any question of using non carriers and trying to get rid of carrier animals. I quite accept that it is entirely possible to keep carriers and use them for breeding very successfully as long as the breeders are well informed and able to distinguish carriers and non carriers to avoid carrier to carrier matings and the resultant bulldogs. Having bred short to short individuals on a small scale for several years I got my reward one year when I had 4 bulldog calves from 3 breeding females in 12 months, hence my present breeding policy. But this breed has a constant supply of new recruits, and a certain proportion of them will not take on board the dangers and bulldogs will result. I would be much happier if we could produce non carrier Dexters with the appearance of the traditional Dexter.

Sorry that is a bit of a rant,

Duncan

[B.Netti78070]

Hi Duncan,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the dwarfism in Hereford cattle is recessive, where in Dexters it is dominate.

I enjoy reading all of you posts.

Here in the U.S. the ADCA membership voted and it passed, to have on a voluntary basis DNA test reports for chondrodysplasia listed on an animals registration papers.
I think this was a positive step for the ADCA.

Now a breeder can make a informed decision on what they what to breed.

B.Netti
www.legendrockranch

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I would not describe myself as a geneticist either, but I try to understand as much as I can and to put it in as non jargon language as I can when discussing it. I think you are right about the difference between the hereford dwarf and the bulldog, though the bulldog is often described as showing incomplete dominance, ie the carrier (short legged?) dexter shows some effect of the dominant gene whereas the bulldog shows the full effect.

Duncan

[Martin]

Hi Beryl,
My faith in the Dexter cow is born simply from the fact that I like them, their personalities, their size (frame) their milkiness and their mothering ability. All of my cows have rather narrow back ends which I hope to address by using Apollo this year (I am already looking forward to next years calving results). I do not wish to dilute the things that draw me to the breed, and as I know that Di selects for udder and milkiness I am sure I will have improvements in desired traits. The Dexter is in my view is an exellent suckler cow for the above reasons, but as people have said on this site, we have the dissadvantage that when it comes to slaughter house costs its all done on a per head basis which can really eat into those hard earned 'profits'.
Martin.

[Woodmagic]

I have already said I would never want to refuse registration to short females, but equally I cannot accept that they are a type, they are a straight cross between a normal animal with two sound genes to supply the blue print for the skeleton, and a bulldog calf without genes for proper skeleton development. They only survive because they are bred with one of the genes borrowed from the ‘long leg’.
I recall a Jersey that had inherited the bulldog gene from a Dexter parent three generations back; it was in all other respects pure Jersey in appearance. It failed to produce a live calf on three successive occasions when mated with a short leg Dexter, and never did have a successful offspring, it was not a different ‘type’ of Jersey. simply a Jersey that had inherited the bulldog gene. Many years ago, the Jersey breeders struggled to eradicate a similar faulty gene within their own breed. A lot of breeds have had similar problems, most have bred them out, I read ‘The Battle of the Bull Runts’, years ago, and found it hilarious, it struck so many chords!
My herd has not seen a traditional short leg for many years, but visitors usually remark within minutes on how uniform they are. In the case of the short leg to long mating you only know the conformation of the long, the short is an unknown quantity.
To breed small non-carriers you need in the first instance to find a suitable bull and then use it to multiply animals in your own herd. I have spent a long time trying to produce you a picture, but cant make it, I can assure you it is possible to have a small short leg that is clear of the bulldog, I have more expertise in the breeding than managing my computer!

[Sylvia]

I too have been trying to get pictures onto the site without success, unfortunately I don't have years of successsful Dexter breeding to turn to so I think that makes me a dismal failure in all respects. As a relative newcomer to Dexters (only 6 years) I have to say there seems to be something very wrong in Dexterworld. Long before I thought about getting Dexters I'd heard of the bulldog calf so it must have been so common it was in the (slightly animal orientated) public domain then. When I finally did get some I was comforted by the fact that it was now known how to avoid it. I wasn't that bothered by the fact that uniformity wasn't that achievable. Pygmy goats used to be easily divided into pituitary hypoplasia (a normal shaped very small goat) and achondroplasia (long body, short limbs) but over the years these two types have given way to a more uniform, sturdy 'in between' type probably accelerated by in-breeding by individual breeders. This was not hindered by any gene causing havoc if 2 carrier animals bred. However with the Dexters I'm beginning to get the feeling that this problem should have been addressed, not by a few dedicated breeders, but by the DCS, and before numbers had reached those today. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but I can see a serious necessity to rid the national herd of carriers, would I slaughter my darling shorts for the greater good? I would not. Particularly while the picture imprinted of a 'proper' Dexter in my brain is a SHORT Dexter. Am I alone in these thoughts? I think not.

[Woodmagic]

Sylvia, I am quite sure you could teach me a thing or two, we all have expertise in something, but I am pretty dumb when it comes to computers. When I started to breed Dexters, I quickly learnt that most vets were very anti Dexter, the reason being that their text books included the Dexter bulldog as the classic example of the lethal recessive.
A large proportion of breeders did not need to study the commercial aspect, and liked the look of the short leg, any suggestion of using a long leg bull was derided, even forbidden, in actuality the long leg was often blamed for producing the bulldog, through some form of convoluted reasoning. Genetics had not reached the point where it could prove anything; the singular breeder who used a long leg bull would hide it out of sight. When I suggested at an AGM, we made a long leg bull available on A.I. for the small breeder, my suggestion was greeted with horror. Genetics has come a very long way in the last fifty years.
We can now with confidence argue that we shouldn’t perpetuate the short leg by converting normal animals into carriers, but continue to register the ‘short’ females and their progeny. Since they will breed 50% calves carrying the dud gene, there is every possibility for folks to continue to breed them if they wish, but as can be seen from these columns, even that proposal isn’t going to have an easy passage.

[Inger]

As requested, here is a picture of Bindalee Magic Whoisit. She is a 5 year old 102 cm, non-carrier. Her Sire was one of Beryl's bulls.

[Sylvia]

Lovely picture Inger and lovely looking cow, bless her!

[Woodmagic]

Thank you so much Inger, that is brilliant, I don’t see that anyone can argue she doesn’t look like a Dexter, for those who like me are not metric, she is a fraction over 40”. Put to a similar bull she should repeat herself every time; unlike the traditional short leg giving 50%, which when it is the right shape, is inevitably of the wrong sex. I still remember my early days, when a calving was followed by the question, not which sex, but is it a short or long?

[Martin]

Another one bites the dust!
Cooper & Son of Alldington near Ashford, slaughter house and butchers are closing next week, another small family business that can't keep up with all the regulations and spiralling costs, less choice for us and more travelling for our animals. It would seem that we will soon have production line killing only.