Dexters and Beef - Where do we go from here

[Inger]

There is no reason why a beefier Dexter bull can't be found. The genes must be there as these have plenty of meat;



An Australian bred bull



A New Zealand bred bull



Another New Zealand bred bull.

The genes are out there, they just need to be concentrated into a beefier Dexter.

We have mostly non-carriers and get 180 kgs of meat from a 250 kg (approx) cow

[Sylvia]

How did you do that Inger? Nice pictures.

[Sylvia]

I would also like to shove my tuppenceworth in about crossing Dexters with bigger beef breeds to get more profit. Why? If people want more profit buy the bigger breeds in the first place. I cannot see the point in trying to breed bigger, more profitable, animals by crossing Dexters. Dexters are popular because they are small cows. I am sure there are plenty of beefy Dexters, I own some. But I cannot see the point of trying to get bigger, beefier animals by crossing with other breeds. Surely selecting the right Dexters is the way forward? Am I missing something here?

[wagra dexters]

Here, here.

[Adrian]

We don't need to get bigger and bigger! I agree with, that to get more profit per animal you have to take a other breed from the beginning...
The biggest benefit of a Dexter is, that he's small!
That why i breed Dexter. If put out "big creatures" on my steep pastures, they will come back with the pastures. Dexter cattle i can let out all the time even when it rain's and you will never see any traces on my hills!

[Martin]

I knew my post would get some sort of reaction as I know there are a lot of Dexter keepers that have both feet firmly embeded in the past and still wearing the blinkers that where issued long ago by the 'purists' within the society.
I keep Dexter cows because I like them, but I keep all non short as I get no pleasure from looking or working with shorts, I do not want short animals so I also have a non short bull. I have been told (I believe it was also mentioned on this site) that if you continue to breed non short to non short you end up with a bag of bones that you cannot put meat on. It would seem that the beefier bulls are mainly shorts and as I have no intention of owning a short bull I will look at outcrossing to meet my requirements.
I am not looking to keep any of the crosses but everything will go for meat. When I require replacements for my breeding herd I will buy dexter cows. Unless of course you wish me to purchase something else and reduce the membership to the society and deprive other Dexter breeders of a market for their animals. I do not think that the people who have expressed an interest in buying meat from me are concerned about the bread of animal, as long as it is good quality and LOCALLY produced, none of these people had ever heard of Dexters until I started keeping them.
Most commercial herds around the world are built on crossed animals, and for good reason, the best traits from different breeds being used, very little beef consumed in this country will be from pedigree animals.
You should be welcoming anyone that prefered to keep Dexter cows as a foundation for a beef herd, not criticising their motives. And why is profit such a dirty word, you may be able to keep your herd purely for pleasure, its not something everyone is in a position to do, the Dexter must be a breed for all if it is to carry on thriving it cannot be just nice to look at. Have there not been posts recently about the Dexter's dissadvantage over other breeds when slaughter costs etc are per head and not per kilo, about poor prices for breeding stock, about too many animals for sale and not enough buyers, about subscriptions and costings being too high, about looking to bring the society into the 21st century. Now those amongst us looking to do something about it are encouraged to look to other breeds. As the saying goes 'one step forward and two back'.
I am now putting on my tin helmet and await the first salvo in what could be a long battle.
Martin.

[Chris Taylor]

Martin

I am 100 % behind you on all your comments. Dexters have to pay, and if that means in some cases crossing with another beef breed, than so be it. Pedigree breeding is only one part of keeping Dexters, beef production is another and if that means with other breeds lets go for it !! I have seen some very good beef shorthorn cross steers and heifers from both short and non short Dexter cows (calved no problem) and the size and KO % have been very good. These were sold to farm shop with the taste being exceptional, and also Aberdeen Angus cross cattle are very good . More work has to be done on cross breeding of other beef breeds, if a poor quality Dexter cow is to produce a calf every year then cross breed her, do not breed pure ! To promote the Dexter breed then show her/his versitile potential as a cross breeding dam/sire producing exceptional cross bred commercial steers/heifers. The Australian breeder Trish Cabassi from Perth won a fatstock show with a Limousin cross Dexter steer and ended up being Champion and sold the carcase for good money !
The UK Dexter Society really needs to fund some trials on this subject and there is government funding out there to help us with it !

[Rob & Alison Kirk]

Martin - On your posting on 29 Jan 07, you said you have a short-leg steer, very stocky, with some good cuts of beef when butchered. Where did this steer come from if you're putting non-short to non-short?

I think there are very few Dexter keepers "wearing blinkers." We have been breeding Dexters for some 17 years, starting with two and now farming approx 150 head. During that period we have brought in and bred horned Dexter bulls with good conformation, as well as careful selection of heifers, both short and non-short. This is what pedigree breeding is all about.

We have a very profitable enterprise selling beef from only home-bred short & non-short animals, as well as continuing the selection of heifers for breeding, rejecting unsuitable heifers which go for beef.

I realise not everyone is interested in pedigree breeding so, therefore, there is a need for commercial breeders. Would there by sufficient females to fill their requirements? Whether or not the financial returns will be greater, only time will tell. Our killing costs at £175 per head are very reasonable - this includes slaughter, cutting up and packing.

Poor prices for breeding stock:
(1) How good is the stock on offer?
(2) Do vendor's really know the value of their animals?

It would be a useful exercise to find out how many Dexter keepers would consider farming their Dexters commercially.

Robert Kirk

[AlastairC]

I am a bit concerned about the comment that continued breeding of non-shorts leads to bags of bones.
I am a beef farmer, if very much a novice, and it is my intention to make a profit from my Dexters. I have Dexters because I bought in to the 'small is beautiful' sales pitch offered to me by Bill Burn of Seamer Supreme notoriety.
Most of what he said has turned out to be true (ish!) and I love my little bovines to bits. So far so good. But if I end uo with 40 bags of bones I shall be seriously unhappy - not to mention the Inland Revenue et al. who appear to rely on me to fund the Health Service.
I breed and eat pedigree for the simple reason that I hope to get a degree of predictability in the product. The animals that I have now seem to have considerable vigour (as in hybrid) but are not as predictable as I would expect from stable breed genetics. Perhaps this is a reflection of the imported genes from the rare breeds recovery period.
I personally do not think that breeding larger Dexters is sensible. I have an idea that our 'little Celtic hill cattle' are not so far removed from the same origins as the Aberdeen Angus. These are now huge with, in my opinion, a decline in the quality of the beef. More does not always mean better.

Alastair

[Broomcroft]

Hi

I'm with Martin and Chris. I would really welcome a much more open and productive beef aspect/section of the society. I mentioned in an earlier topic that I didn't think that, as a beef producer, the society did much for me apart from the obvious. I had a response saying that the web site had a whole paragraph on the beef (i.e. so I must be wrong!). Without wishing to be impolite, I think that this comment made my point for me. Beef hardly exists as an issue of significance in anything the society produces, and I believe it should be the main focus, including help, advice and research into cross-breeding.

Clive

[Sylvia]

"I knew my post would get some sort of reaction as I know there are a lot of Dexter keepers that have both feet firmly embeded in the past and still wearing the blinkers that where issued long ago by the 'purists' within the society."

This site works, by and large, by canvassing opinions. There seems to be a nasty trend developing that it is OK to insult people whose opinions differ from one's own. The above comments are a case in point.

If pure Dexters cannot compete at any level in beef production (which is what the pro-crossing supporters seem to be saying) then the breed is doomed, apart from a few kept for curiosity value in zoos or farm parks. The reality seems to be somewhat different, there are breeders who are successfully promoting Dexter beef. Others, like myself, are finding it difficult to find a suitable market beyond a few loyal customers. If the DCS does anything it should be doing something to assist in the marketing of the excellent product, DEXTER beef.

I cannot see that the DCS has any business helping those who simply look on Dexters as a convenience. Keeping a herd of small cows but expecting them to produce much larger offspring by using a bigger breed bull on them may well be more commercial but has nothing to do with improving Dexters themselves and surely this should be the aim of anyone breeding Dexters.

[Broomcroft]

Crossing is what beef farmers do. I am pedigree, but thinking of crossing because it seems that the result is a slightly larger animal (not huge as suggested), and that the calf is born small (I am told?) but grows larger, and that the result is a carcase that is more marketable to butchers, and still retains good flavour.

I don't see crossing for beef as bad for Dexters, it is good, in fact it could be very, very good. The pure-bred people continue to produce breeding stock and have a new market selling stock to the farmer's who cross for beef (but not with a continental I believe because they you have calf size issues?). It could indeed be a whole new future for the breed.

On the Australian Dexter Society site, a Dexter-Limousin won it's beef class out of a big field, and a Limousin-Dexter came second. They point out that the Limousin Bull to Dexter Cow coupling was a mistake and is NOT recommended. Apparently they want smaller carcases in Australia which is interesting.

I have emailed the Australian people to find out a bit more.

Clive

[TonyH]

One of the reasons we breed pure Dexters is that they calve so easily, usually on their own and with no assistance.It keeps our vet's bills low and the cows healthy. I would have thought that by breeding to a larger breed bull all this could be put at risk. I remember several years ago when dairy farmers milked Friesans rather than the big framed Holsteins of today and the trend was to cross them with the Charolais to get larger steers, some of our neighbours had terrible problems calving as the calves were so large.
We sell our beef on the basis of quality and flavour which is the reason (so they tell us) that our customers come back for more. Could crossing with another breed change that?
Ok, our steers are not huge, but, at the moment, neither are our costs. Larger ones would obviously eat more meaning either more cost if finishing them indoors or fewer animals if grazing, so potentially, if we went down this route, we would have a bigger carcase to sell but at greater cost, so our margins could be the same.
Having thought about it, we are now working hard to produce pure Dexter steers that finish at 22 months on the basis that 'if it ain't broke...don't fix it!'

[wagra dexters]

Clive, My first worry would be that you are inviting calving problems. We had trouble with a huge 27 kg calf, and that had a Dexter sire. Angus and Murray Grey calves are as high as 40 and 50 kgs now. The Dexter Mum will only pull the size down so far, but the bull definitely does influence the calf weight, to say nothing of the weight of the bull on the cows, or were you thinking of AI? Some of your cows may be big & rangy, in which case a crossbred Dexter from a beef dam might be an option.
My second worry would be that you may be using cows of national herd significance from which to breed crossbreds. Does the UK DCS have the numbers to promote the use of Dexter females as foundation stock for a cross-bred beef herd? They used to be on the rare breeds list! I'd hate to think you had any back-to-the-ark, undiluted genes in the mob you want to cross breed. But, they are your cows,..and we sell plenty of meat animals also, although not without prior consideration as to their breeding value. Good luck. Margaret, purist.

[Penny]

I had been wondering where this " continued breeding non-short to non-short produces a bag of bones" had come from, thinking some one with a fondness for short-legged dexters had been busy with some propaganda, when I suddenly realised some of my comments may have been linked to part or all of this! In a previous posting I had said that some of the big dexters, when killed out, are more bones and less meat than some of the smaller non-shorts.
With a careful breeding programme, choosing the correct bull, there is no reason at all why non-shorts will not retain beefiness. All I was meaning is that size is not everything.(!)
Look at production costs, stocking rates, liveweight/deadweight/killing out percentages and the VALUE of the meat produced. Larger ones may give more meat, but is it of the good cuts or poor cuts?

I personally have no intention to cross, as I have worked hard to build up a high quality, consistent product, and if I had any crosses I would have to market it very differently. I cannot risk losing my customer confidence. However, we are talking of a different scenario here, and there are commercial reasons why quite a few people are, or would like to cross breed and if it is marketed accordingly it could still be very good for the breed.
I would prefer a really good campaign to get Dexter beef firmly in the Foodie dictionary so that prices could go up enough that high slaughter costs etc became affordable, so there would be no financial incentive to cross-breed.

Dexters and their owners are a diverse bunch! We all have our ideas about how things should be, and disagree about short versus non-short, polled versus horned, grass-fed versus hard -fed beef etc. This is just another issue that we are not going to agree on.

Penny