Starting a small herd - Advice

Chris Downward · Post by **Chris Downward** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:38 pm

Having looked at various options over the past few years I have fallen for Dexter cattle. We have a organic hill farm in Carmarthenshire and I would like some advice on the difference other than the obvious between short and long legs?
Also is it possible to winter these outside (approx 1000ft)--feeding etc is not a problem but complete housing would be.
Also any general advice on pitfalls etc.
I would need to start a herd of about 5-6 heiffers in the next month or so.
All help gratefully received
chris

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:48 pm

The real difference to be quite clear about as a beginner is the fact that the traditional short legged dexter carries one copy of the bulldog gene and one for long legs, whereas the long legged ones carry two copies of the long legged gene. The bulldog gene results in a lethal abnormality with practically no legs at all, and will result from one in four short legged to short legged matings. However if you always have one long legged parent you will never get any bulldogs. If you are going to use AI then you can easily keep a mix of long and short females and plan the matings accordingly. If you wish to keep any short legged females in the herd and use a bull then I would say always keep a long legged one. By long legged I mean one which is a non carrier - these can all be tested nowadays and there is no need for any doubt. Doubt can arise because natural variation means that some "long legged" can be so short that they are shorter than some "short legged" ones.
For many years the show ring has very much favoured the short leg, though times are changing and good quality long legged animals can be successful.

For beef the long legged may take a bit longer to finish, and the short legged may look beefier, but to a great extent this is an optical illusion since the muscle mass is probably the same but attached to shorter bones in the short legged ones.

For milking purposes the old story against the shorts was that the udder was so close to the ground that they were difficult to milk and could damage themselves on the ground, but I have both hand milked and machine milked small numbers of both types and don't think it makes a lot of difference, though I might think differently if I were milking a herd of a hundred. For the house cow pick what you prefer yourself.

My own experience of breeding short to short was that I did it in small numbers for a few years without getting a bulldog. Then in one year I got four bulldogs out of 3 females, one of which never calved again due to damage caused by the aborting bulldog. As a result I looked much more closely at the work of Beryl Rutherford, and decided to try to breed non bulldog carriers as close as possible to the traditional short leg. I am currently using a Woodmagic bred bull which is not a bulldog carrier but measured just over 40" high at the rump at 3 years old.

Since Dexters of both types overlap in leg length it is fortunate that we now have genetic testing available. When I bought my first Woodmagic bull he stood in the byre tied beside the sire of all my bulldogs, and they were EXACTLY the same height.

If you have not yet done so I would recommend reading Beryl Rutherford's book.

This does not say all that can be said on short versus long by any means but hopefully will start some discussion and I hope we do not confuse you too much.

Duncan

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:49 pm

Additiona point - if you are purchasing any in calf short legged Dexters make sure they are in calf to a non-bulldog carrier bull.

Duncan

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:47 pm

My holding is at c.1000ft in the Pennines. The boys don't come inside during the winter but they do have a lean to roofed field shelter attached to the barn, so I can just open the barn door to throw hay at them. My girls normally calve Jan-March so I want them inside. You would have to think hard about when to calve because of knock on effect of having growing youngstock outside in bad weather later in the year, and not clashing calving with lambing if you have sheep. I aim to have surplus calves weaned and ready to sell in the autumn so I don't have to winter them.

Chris Downward · Post by **Chris Downward** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:34 am

Duncan,
Many thanks for such a complete reply, why has the bulldog gene not been breed out?
Normally with such a gene breeding is designed to make it as resesive as possible. I will definitly take your advice and read Beryl Rutherfords book--I'll check Amazon etc.

Louisa,
Many thanks for your advice on calving. In the last few days we have had suntan weather on the same day as snow!!
many Thanks
Chris

Chris Downward · Post by **Chris Downward** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:45 am

Having looked at Amazon etc, does anybody know where I can purchase or borrow a copy of Beryl Rutherfords book mentioned by Duncan?
Chris

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:53 am

I still have copies of Beryl's book available, £12.80 including postage in UK, cheques made payable to Duncan Macintyre, please, send with order to
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside
Ascog
Rothesay
Isle of Bute PA20 9ET.

Anyone outwith UK who can send me payment in sterling cheque should get in touch for postage costs, email to duncan.macintyre@btopenworld.com

Kathy Millar · Post by **Kathy Millar** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:25 am

Having been to Carmarthanshire once and seen some of those hills, I would be more inclined towards the long-legged Dexter as they seem more nimble than the shorts. Just my thoughts as I have never owned either tall hills or short-legged Dexters (I think they are unbalanced-looking) ???

Kathy

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:09 am

In view of the recent post about escape artists & earlier topic of absconding steer, make sure you have a secure holding area for your new animals. Keep them penned until they are used to you, you can handle them without being skittish, possibly even halter them. Train them to associate you with food. Otherwise you will have seriously free range stock.
The concept of hefting applies to cattle, as well as sheep, and I'm slightly amazed that new stock keepers appear to have done very little reading about animal behaviour before embarking on keeping something as large and strong as a Dexter. There is a big difference between home bred stock, who grow up learning the boundaries, and bought in youngstock, particularly from different herds & gone through a big rare breed sale, who don't know each other & are turned out in a totally new & strange environment with new & strange humans. They are going to be homesick & start looking for home. You need to teach them that this is their new home & a good place to be before letting them out on the hill.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:39 am

We live in Carmarthenshire on a farm between 600ft and 800ft. We have short and non-short Dexters, both types are nimble enough to cope with this definitely not flat land. We have outwintered (with plenty of woodland cover) when we had a dozen or so, they grew shaggy coats and came to no harm. To protect the land they are now wintered in a barn.

I agree with Louise about research, which you are obviously doing, Chris. So far as breeding out the bulldog gene is concerned, this is relatively new information (in the last few years), you can't alter things so quickly and retain the features which make Dexters so appealing. Over time it may well be achieved but not in the near future. It is an enormous step forward that we now know how to avoid getting bulldog calves.

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:43 pm

We find that the long-legged Dexters cope better with our steep hills and boggy swamps than our short legged Dexters.

I agree with Sylvia, we will probably, as a breeding group, eventually breed out the bulldog completely. However, there are still a number of breeders around who feel that the presence of the bulldog gene is what make Dexters Dexters. My hope is that once they have seen that is is very possible to retain the low height without the Bulldog gene, they will be happy to let that gene go, without regret.

I've got Grade 2 heifers who fit within the breed height guidelines. More and more non-carrier bulls of lower height are becoming available. So it should get easier to reduce the average heights of our cow herds - given time.

Chris Downward · Post by **Chris Downward** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:40 pm

Many thanks to everybody for your advice.---Duncan--cheque in the post to you re Beryls book.

groubearfarm · Post by **groubearfarm** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:23 am

I think it might prove helpful if you were to contact the Dexter Field Advisor in your area. He/She would have a good idea of your local conditions and hopefully offer you another point of view and on the spot advice. Mick Oliphant (co-ordinator) I am sure would be able to put you in touch with someone, phone nos are on the DCS web site. Good luck Fiona

JacquiP · Post by **JacquiP** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:53 am

Why not visit the Mid Wales and Shropshire Dexter Cattle Promotion stand at the RWAS Smallholder and Garden Festival which takes place on the 20th and 21st May 2006 at Builth Wells?

PeterO · Post by **PeterO** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:24 am

Chris

A late reply - I had Dexters at 900' in the Shropshire Hills - they wintered happily outside but had high field hedges and some tree shelter. They didn't chop up the steepish fields but I did get some poaching around winter feed points.

Peter