Possibly a controversial subject but here goes:
A recent bulletin mentioned a sale in which the cows were not happy to be haltered and not easily handled in the ring. I can't remember the exact words but that was the gist of it. The implication was that they did not come from a well run herd.
Now i can understand that a dairy cow needs to be quiet natured and biddable but my experience of suckler cows is somewhat different. Most farmers won't keep a nasty animal but the ability to halter them is not really relevant.
I can do what I need with my cows i.e. they will follow me when moving fields and I can pen them for veterinary work etc but they are not as easy to handle as a dairy cow because they don't get that daily contact.
So, my question is:
Should we still insist that cows are sold on a halter, or is this now not too relevant? Is this just another case of Dexter owners conforming to outmoded practices based around dairy rather than beef?
Untrained Cattle!
This subject interests me too Peter because my cows also move well etc when I need them to but have not been haltered. I don't want to show them (nor sell them through a sales ring) so I can't see the point. In addition if cows are sold as having been haltered it is pretty hit and miss whether the new owner will be able to do so or not. It would certainly cut sales of Dexters to a minimum, I think, if every animal sold had to be trained to walk nicely with a halter. Although having said that I now await loads of replies from people who do just that.
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Robert & Alison Kirk old
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In our opinion there are two different view points on this subject:
(1) Single suckling Dexter herds farmed for beef on the same basis as the larger breeds - there is not time to halter train and lead every animal in a large herd. This leads me to ask the question - should there be a section in the annual sale to cater for this type of Dexter?
(2) Pedigree Dexter breeding where the emphasis is more on the handling of individual animals, plus the fact that many will be taken to shows when it is a requirement that all animals are haltered and not unruly. In this case Dexters must be halter-trained and well handled at home prior to venturing out to various events/sold onto other pedigree breeders, some of whom may be inexperienced in the handling of cattle.
From our own experience, it does make life easier if Dexters are halter trained, especially breeding stock, ie bulls and cows.
Robert & Alison Kirk
(1) Single suckling Dexter herds farmed for beef on the same basis as the larger breeds - there is not time to halter train and lead every animal in a large herd. This leads me to ask the question - should there be a section in the annual sale to cater for this type of Dexter?
(2) Pedigree Dexter breeding where the emphasis is more on the handling of individual animals, plus the fact that many will be taken to shows when it is a requirement that all animals are haltered and not unruly. In this case Dexters must be halter-trained and well handled at home prior to venturing out to various events/sold onto other pedigree breeders, some of whom may be inexperienced in the handling of cattle.
From our own experience, it does make life easier if Dexters are halter trained, especially breeding stock, ie bulls and cows.
Robert & Alison Kirk
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Duncan MacIntyre
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How nice to hear from experienced folks like the Kirks.
I cannot agree more that there are really two sides to this, especially as the breed expands not every Dexter owner wants to show, and not every animal in a large herd needs to be individually handled.
But for the top sales like most breeds I think we expect animals to be of a high standard and to be seen at their best. This need not be so for every sale - only for the "elite" - Stoneleigh in its day and hopefully Melton Mowbray will take on this role. In almost every breed of cattle the top pedigree sales require animals to be shown and inspected, and to be worthy examples of the breed. There are many regional sales of Rare and Minority breeds where this does not apply, and if vendors cannot aspire to the standards of the top sales they have alternatives.
Perhaps we need to be clearer when issuing entry forms as to what standards will apply, and ensure that vendors have agreed in advance if halter training and inspections will be required.
There will be many who do not want to be part of this and that is fine. Their Dexters are just as much a part of the breed as the high fliers.
Duncan
I cannot agree more that there are really two sides to this, especially as the breed expands not every Dexter owner wants to show, and not every animal in a large herd needs to be individually handled.
But for the top sales like most breeds I think we expect animals to be of a high standard and to be seen at their best. This need not be so for every sale - only for the "elite" - Stoneleigh in its day and hopefully Melton Mowbray will take on this role. In almost every breed of cattle the top pedigree sales require animals to be shown and inspected, and to be worthy examples of the breed. There are many regional sales of Rare and Minority breeds where this does not apply, and if vendors cannot aspire to the standards of the top sales they have alternatives.
Perhaps we need to be clearer when issuing entry forms as to what standards will apply, and ensure that vendors have agreed in advance if halter training and inspections will be required.
There will be many who do not want to be part of this and that is fine. Their Dexters are just as much a part of the breed as the high fliers.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Oh Duncan you have hit a sore point with me and it doesn't just apply to Dexters.
You seem to be saying that animals that are taken to shows are better quality than those which are not. I agree they are better trained, their owners take time out to travel to shows etc. But when it comes to the bottom line are the animals treated like this actually better animals in terms of conformation, breeding ability, longevity etc than those not exposed to the stress of showing.
Are animals taken to shows the cream and those from non-showing herds poor quality?
Am I fighting a losing battle here?
You seem to be saying that animals that are taken to shows are better quality than those which are not. I agree they are better trained, their owners take time out to travel to shows etc. But when it comes to the bottom line are the animals treated like this actually better animals in terms of conformation, breeding ability, longevity etc than those not exposed to the stress of showing.
Are animals taken to shows the cream and those from non-showing herds poor quality?
Am I fighting a losing battle here?
I thoroughly agree with Sylvia - reading this correspondence (and the concurrent one on horned Dexters) there seems to be an implicit attitude amongst those showing Dexters that any Dexters that are not shown, or regularly haltered, or are horned are somehow inferior to the (very small) group of semi-pet show Dexters.
My Dexters are horned, not haltered and are not shown (who has the time) yet given their Cobthorn breeding are I suggest as good as any in the Herd register. A suggestion ( under Horns) that horned cattle should be 'separated' in the herd register is I suggest the wrong approach, the 'polled mutation' is perhaps the less representative of the Dexter ideal if there is such a thing.
Peter
My Dexters are horned, not haltered and are not shown (who has the time) yet given their Cobthorn breeding are I suggest as good as any in the Herd register. A suggestion ( under Horns) that horned cattle should be 'separated' in the herd register is I suggest the wrong approach, the 'polled mutation' is perhaps the less representative of the Dexter ideal if there is such a thing.
Peter
Peter
www.kahurangi.org
www.kahurangi.org
Hi
I thought I would add my two pence to this one, I very rarely show all though I would like to more if I had the time, the majority of my animals are non short and I work full time and run a herd of approx 18 females and followers and I try to halter train all my female animals and my resons are as follows, if you need to bring an animal in for an individual reason, or move on from one yard to another in winter for calving, foot trimming or A.I. it is very easy, also if you have a problem and need a vet being able to tie an animal up without stressing it is a great advantage.
As for sales where animals are not halter trained, most first time buyers do not have the right kind of trailors or experience to transport an animal who is stressed out because its been taken to a sale and is not use to being individually handled and if you halter train and get them use to being tie up, its a great bonus for most first time buyers.
You will also find if you go to the pedigree sales of most other breeds that the majority of animals sold for the higher prices are halter trained although they may never see a halter again in their lives.
I have a very good set up and if I wished could move my cattle around with out ever halter training, but I have never regretted spending that extra time getting them use to a halter.
Just as a point of intrest my brother runs a suckling herd of approx 150 commercial breeding females and everone it use to being tie up.
Ann
I thought I would add my two pence to this one, I very rarely show all though I would like to more if I had the time, the majority of my animals are non short and I work full time and run a herd of approx 18 females and followers and I try to halter train all my female animals and my resons are as follows, if you need to bring an animal in for an individual reason, or move on from one yard to another in winter for calving, foot trimming or A.I. it is very easy, also if you have a problem and need a vet being able to tie an animal up without stressing it is a great advantage.
As for sales where animals are not halter trained, most first time buyers do not have the right kind of trailors or experience to transport an animal who is stressed out because its been taken to a sale and is not use to being individually handled and if you halter train and get them use to being tie up, its a great bonus for most first time buyers.
You will also find if you go to the pedigree sales of most other breeds that the majority of animals sold for the higher prices are halter trained although they may never see a halter again in their lives.
I have a very good set up and if I wished could move my cattle around with out ever halter training, but I have never regretted spending that extra time getting them use to a halter.
Just as a point of intrest my brother runs a suckling herd of approx 150 commercial breeding females and everone it use to being tie up.
Ann
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Duncan MacIntyre
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I am sorry if any of you feel I am putting down your Dexters or way of running your herds. I certainly do not intend to. I very much recognise that there are very many variations on what type of Dexters to keep and how to keep them. On the sales and inspections front I just feel that if we are having sales of, hopefullly, top quality animals, in conjunction with a show, then these animals need to be handled and amenable to handling by judges and inspectors. Many other breed socities run similar or even more tightly regulated sales. That by no means implies that I think that everyone elses cattle are in any way substandard. Cattle which have never been handled, never been used to being moved and seeing different places and people are often so terrified in a market as to be dangerous to inspect. As an inspector I have no intention of being injured trying to check the teeth, teats etc of unhandled animals. Several times over the years I have had to decline to inspect cattle simply because it was not safe to be in the same pen as the animals let alone physicaly handle them. For one or two Society Approved sales I think it is important that those animals on sale have been inspected. That places no judgement on any cattle not present. Nor does it restrict the right of owners to sell their cattle - there are plenty of other outlets.
Having said that if anyone wishes to maintain that their cattle are better than anyone elses then how do we know that if they are running round the walls?
Please do not think for one moment that I am under any illusions as to the quality of my own herd either - I have had good and bad like most breeders, and it is much easier to have mediocre than good. At this moment I own several which I would not pass for a national sale, but nevertheless they have a place in my breeding programme.
If I am still making anyone feel sore please let me know.
Duncan
Having said that if anyone wishes to maintain that their cattle are better than anyone elses then how do we know that if they are running round the walls?
Please do not think for one moment that I am under any illusions as to the quality of my own herd either - I have had good and bad like most breeders, and it is much easier to have mediocre than good. At this moment I own several which I would not pass for a national sale, but nevertheless they have a place in my breeding programme.
If I am still making anyone feel sore please let me know.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Hi Gang
Good dicussion !!!
My only comment would be concerning value of your beasts.
If you want the best price for your animal; you have to make the effort and if by haltering it you get an extra £200; then hey pass me the halter.
As many Dexter breeders are not only new to the breed but also actually to keping cattle and may not know what a good cow looks like; then I believe that some kind of inspection will prove useful to them. I guess the problem comes if a particular animal has a superficial blemish on the day, eg a wart, would it get rejected ?
Keep chatting
Good dicussion !!!
My only comment would be concerning value of your beasts.
If you want the best price for your animal; you have to make the effort and if by haltering it you get an extra £200; then hey pass me the halter.
As many Dexter breeders are not only new to the breed but also actually to keping cattle and may not know what a good cow looks like; then I believe that some kind of inspection will prove useful to them. I guess the problem comes if a particular animal has a superficial blemish on the day, eg a wart, would it get rejected ?
Keep chatting
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monica waltho
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HI Peter
Reguarding dexters with horns I did not suggest that they were seperated in the herd book just highlighted so that those of you who wished to purchase horned cattle could do so more easily. As for halter training I never seem to have the time but I do agree that if you have the time it is well worth while.I certainly miss not having the old type tie shed any animal that has been trained to be handled never forgets. I have a 13year old cow that hd not had a halter on her for about 7-8years I needed her to help catch an escapee I just put the halter on and she happly led out of the shed into the trailer.
Reguarding dexters with horns I did not suggest that they were seperated in the herd book just highlighted so that those of you who wished to purchase horned cattle could do so more easily. As for halter training I never seem to have the time but I do agree that if you have the time it is well worth while.I certainly miss not having the old type tie shed any animal that has been trained to be handled never forgets. I have a 13year old cow that hd not had a halter on her for about 7-8years I needed her to help catch an escapee I just put the halter on and she happly led out of the shed into the trailer.
Monica
Smallwood Dexters
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Mark Bowles
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Correct me if i am wrong but i think all bulls to be inspected for the Elite bull scheme must be on a halter.
All our females are halter trained,some better than others!, life is so much easier all round,better management,less stress to the animals ( we currently have 19 adult females and 2 bulls). The young stock born outside in the spring and summer will get the attention during the winter when they are inside.
We do show our cattle and you cant beat taking a young calf to a show with its mother in milk for an instant halter training session. In the past even taking a steer calf to a one day show resulted in walking it out of the trailer into the slaughter house much to the amasement of the staff.
Mark
All our females are halter trained,some better than others!, life is so much easier all round,better management,less stress to the animals ( we currently have 19 adult females and 2 bulls). The young stock born outside in the spring and summer will get the attention during the winter when they are inside.
We do show our cattle and you cant beat taking a young calf to a show with its mother in milk for an instant halter training session. In the past even taking a steer calf to a one day show resulted in walking it out of the trailer into the slaughter house much to the amasement of the staff.
Mark
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
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