The flyer from DCS Council states that DNA parent verification for the registration of bulls is COMPULSORY from 1 10 05 as a result of an 'anomoly' with a Stage 2 bull. This can now cost a member up to £90 to register a bull. This, I believe, is an overeaction and is premature as a pool of DNA'd Dexters has not yet built up. It also flies in the face of the present mood against increased fees at this time.
Has anyone figured out the cost of having to have a DCS bull inspector, Field Advisor or Vet (who pays?) to visit a breeder to take DNA samples possibly in three different places for the bull, its sire and its dam at 35p per mile? It will be a very large cost possibly resulting in higher fees particularly for bull registration.
Apparently now because of this DNA anomaly with a Stage 2 bull, DCS Council (or is it the Devon registration committee?) does NOT trust members to take their own DNA cattle samples (we are trusted to fill in our registration cards!). They do not seem to realise that it is in every breeders interest to get parentage correct otherwise their reputation will suffer.
I am afraid that I am not prepared to tell a breeder that they cannot be trusted to take DNA samples from their cattle so I have resigned as a Field Advisor.
Stuart Tarrant
ps It will be interesting to see whether Duncan, being a vet, is allowed to take his own DNA cattle samples (the cost otherwise to visit him in the out islands will be huge)
DNA Parent verification
Hypothethical question: I have a super young bull calf, his registered father died without having DNA samples taken. Can the calf be registered as a bull or not?
Hypothetical conclusion: If he can't be registered as a bull would I not use this perfect example of what I am breeding to achieve? What do you think?
Hypothetical conclusion: If he can't be registered as a bull would I not use this perfect example of what I am breeding to achieve? What do you think?
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Mark Bowles
- Site Admin
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- Location: Leicestershire England
Sorry Sylvia, looks like a no go for your perfect young bull, through no fault of your own.
The whole DCS bull scheme has been tinkered about with and changed at will from the start. I was on council when we made the decision to introduce an Elite sheme rather than insisting that ALL bulls be inspected for registration,hoping that the scheme would take off of its own accord,breeders seeing the sence in inspecting and adding value and " eliteness" to the successfull ones.
I for one have put 4 of my own bred bulls forward for stage one and they have all passed, one ended up in the freezer despite passing and without siring any offspring.I have supported the Scheme.
At £90 to register a bull ( sire and dam alive but not DNA tested) and another £25 for Stage 1 inspection, its getting a bit heavy! Its not as if breeders are stampedeing to join the scheme in the first place.
I note changes are still happening very quietly without explanation, in the last bulletin bulls could be put forward for Stage 1 between 9 to 18 months, now in the latest bulletin its 12 to 18 months, so when your dam is served you had better have a young bull because he needs to stay alive for approx 21 months in order to be DNA tested ( i suppose once all bulls have been DNA tested we will be ok, but what about the Dam, she needs to stay alive 12 months after the birth).
Its all very complicated,and not very " user freindly"
Maybe some discussion with the membership needs to take place, the Agm might be a good idea, but geographicly it is a problem for a lot of people.
Come on council talk to us! and Stuart Tarrant by the looks of things, and hes on Council.
Mark
The whole DCS bull scheme has been tinkered about with and changed at will from the start. I was on council when we made the decision to introduce an Elite sheme rather than insisting that ALL bulls be inspected for registration,hoping that the scheme would take off of its own accord,breeders seeing the sence in inspecting and adding value and " eliteness" to the successfull ones.
I for one have put 4 of my own bred bulls forward for stage one and they have all passed, one ended up in the freezer despite passing and without siring any offspring.I have supported the Scheme.
At £90 to register a bull ( sire and dam alive but not DNA tested) and another £25 for Stage 1 inspection, its getting a bit heavy! Its not as if breeders are stampedeing to join the scheme in the first place.
I note changes are still happening very quietly without explanation, in the last bulletin bulls could be put forward for Stage 1 between 9 to 18 months, now in the latest bulletin its 12 to 18 months, so when your dam is served you had better have a young bull because he needs to stay alive for approx 21 months in order to be DNA tested ( i suppose once all bulls have been DNA tested we will be ok, but what about the Dam, she needs to stay alive 12 months after the birth).
Its all very complicated,and not very " user freindly"
Maybe some discussion with the membership needs to take place, the Agm might be a good idea, but geographicly it is a problem for a lot of people.
Come on council talk to us! and Stuart Tarrant by the looks of things, and hes on Council.
Mark
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Mark,
it is a very good subject to be brought up at the open forum at the AGM with a view to making ALL the facts known. When the complete reasons for this decsion are are out in the public domain it would be an ideal article for the Bulletin, so the full membership are informed. Perhaps Stuart would like to expand further as he is aware of the FULL facts.
it is a very good subject to be brought up at the open forum at the AGM with a view to making ALL the facts known. When the complete reasons for this decsion are are out in the public domain it would be an ideal article for the Bulletin, so the full membership are informed. Perhaps Stuart would like to expand further as he is aware of the FULL facts.
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Stuart Tarrant
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:59 am
Having made a premature decision to introduce compulsory DNA parent verification for bull registrations from 1 10 05 Council decided that the flyer already circulated was inadequate as it created unnecessary rumour and speculation particularly as to the name of the Stage 2 bull involved so decided to send out the facts prior to the AGM. Let Council communicate the background facts.
However, it is clear that the implications of the decision to require COMPULSORY DNA parent verification immediately were not properly considered:
1. No written paper of this proposal to introduce DNA parent verification for bulls was submitted for consideration by Council members.
2. The decision is 'hidden' in Minute 160/04 towards the end. (Minutes have been approved, ask the Secretary)
3. No adequate notice to members for implementation was considered necessary
4 No decision has yet been taken as to whether Vet fees will be reimbursed.
5. As Sylvia asks, what happens if the dam or sire is dead or the present owner will not permit a visit ?
6 As a bull can be registered up to 18 months it is often the case that either dam and/or sire is not on the holding nearly 18 months after birth.
7. The position of birth notified bulls prior to 1 10 05 needs clarification.
8. There will be extra work and pressure for the DCS office staff trying to administer this decision. The office continues to be overloaded by Council decisions (some rather petty) and I am sure that our Secretary will take a lot of aggro from members on this issue.
9. How long will it take to process Bull registrations in future when there are 'DCS officials' running round the country locating cattle. I doubt whether they will always respond quickly to DNA requests.(or is it jobs for the boys ?)
10 It is not currently known whether DCS bull Inspectors and Field Advisors are prepared to carry out DNA sampling or whether they support this Council decision.
11 The cost of introduction at this time is unquantifiable and an open ended liability for the Dexter Cattle Society (ask Ken Hobbs for his estimated cost) and a punitive cost to members wishing to register their bull.
I hope that we get some sanity into this situation and some clear answers from DCS.
Stuart
ps I have attended my last Council meeting
However, it is clear that the implications of the decision to require COMPULSORY DNA parent verification immediately were not properly considered:
1. No written paper of this proposal to introduce DNA parent verification for bulls was submitted for consideration by Council members.
2. The decision is 'hidden' in Minute 160/04 towards the end. (Minutes have been approved, ask the Secretary)
3. No adequate notice to members for implementation was considered necessary
4 No decision has yet been taken as to whether Vet fees will be reimbursed.
5. As Sylvia asks, what happens if the dam or sire is dead or the present owner will not permit a visit ?
6 As a bull can be registered up to 18 months it is often the case that either dam and/or sire is not on the holding nearly 18 months after birth.
7. The position of birth notified bulls prior to 1 10 05 needs clarification.
8. There will be extra work and pressure for the DCS office staff trying to administer this decision. The office continues to be overloaded by Council decisions (some rather petty) and I am sure that our Secretary will take a lot of aggro from members on this issue.
9. How long will it take to process Bull registrations in future when there are 'DCS officials' running round the country locating cattle. I doubt whether they will always respond quickly to DNA requests.(or is it jobs for the boys ?)
10 It is not currently known whether DCS bull Inspectors and Field Advisors are prepared to carry out DNA sampling or whether they support this Council decision.
11 The cost of introduction at this time is unquantifiable and an open ended liability for the Dexter Cattle Society (ask Ken Hobbs for his estimated cost) and a punitive cost to members wishing to register their bull.
I hope that we get some sanity into this situation and some clear answers from DCS.
Stuart
ps I have attended my last Council meeting
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
OK here's another question:
If I register a bull and go through all of these hoops then do I then have to do it all again for its offspring?
As I said in my earlier "What is the DCS up to?" post, it's all getting too heavy for someone who breeds a few cattle for pleasure.
The DCS does not, largely, consist of professional farmers and I confidently (but sadly) predict that all of this will kill the society.
Sorry.
If I register a bull and go through all of these hoops then do I then have to do it all again for its offspring?
As I said in my earlier "What is the DCS up to?" post, it's all getting too heavy for someone who breeds a few cattle for pleasure.
The DCS does not, largely, consist of professional farmers and I confidently (but sadly) predict that all of this will kill the society.
Sorry.
Once DNA is taken from an animal it will be held on record and not have to be taken again, you require to register a Bull, DNA is taken from Sire, Dam & offspring.
If the same Sire & Dam produce another Bull that you require to register then only the offspring will have to be DNA'd as the Sire and Dams DNA will already on record. The Bull offspring then sires a Bull calf you want register. only the Dam and offspring will be required to be tested. eventually the need for DNA testing will be reduced, therefore it will avoid "anonomlies" arising in the future. Hopefully it will also save individual members a lot of money when a bloodline is used and found not to be true.
If the same Sire & Dam produce another Bull that you require to register then only the offspring will have to be DNA'd as the Sire and Dams DNA will already on record. The Bull offspring then sires a Bull calf you want register. only the Dam and offspring will be required to be tested. eventually the need for DNA testing will be reduced, therefore it will avoid "anonomlies" arising in the future. Hopefully it will also save individual members a lot of money when a bloodline is used and found not to be true.
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Kathy Millar
- Posts: 725
- Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 4:53 pm
- Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Couldn't the Society fund a one-time-only DNA testing extravaganza and go out and test the whole damned works (registered animals presently alive and used for breeding?) This can all get a bit silly and just drives away folks from what is basically an excellent organization.
In Canada, only bulls have to be DNA'd and we can take the samples ourselves but I guess that test just shows it's a Dexter and not who the parents were. Boy, life just keeps getting more complicated!!!
:p
Kathy
In Canada, only bulls have to be DNA'd and we can take the samples ourselves but I guess that test just shows it's a Dexter and not who the parents were. Boy, life just keeps getting more complicated!!!
:p Kathy
Kathy
Home Farm, Vancouver Island, Canada
Home Farm, Vancouver Island, Canada
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Kathy Millar
- Posts: 725
- Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 4:53 pm
- Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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Stuart Tarrant
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:59 am
Kathy,
Thanks, I retire formally from Council on 1 10 05 after six years and our rules are that six years is the maximum term (ie two possible three year periods) before taking a year off.
My main interest now is that our new Council carefully considers the implications of whatever they propose doing, consult and consider ALL sections of the membership, a sizeable proportion of which are new to keeping cattle.
Stuart
Thanks, I retire formally from Council on 1 10 05 after six years and our rules are that six years is the maximum term (ie two possible three year periods) before taking a year off.
My main interest now is that our new Council carefully considers the implications of whatever they propose doing, consult and consider ALL sections of the membership, a sizeable proportion of which are new to keeping cattle.
Stuart
In NZ we started off by DNAing all bull calves registered after a certain date. We didn't have to get the parents DNA'd. A new edict has been recently introduced to DNA all the rest of the Registered Bulls. A lot of breeders got the DNA done at the same time as testing for Chondrodysplasia. So most of the bulls in our Herd Book already had their DNA filed with the Herd Registrar. So for us it was just a moping up issue. We were allowed to take the samples ourselves, which made the whole thing much faster and less expensive.
Having this approach has meant that there is a high level of compliance. It was worth testing our animals for the C gene, because animals which test negative, are much easier to sell in this country. So forking out an extra $30 to DNA your bull while you're doing a blood test anyway wasn't that much extra, especially when we have to pay around $90 to test for BD1 and BD2.
There's always a bit of controversy when new rules are introduced into a society, but I hope everything works out for the best for you.
Having this approach has meant that there is a high level of compliance. It was worth testing our animals for the C gene, because animals which test negative, are much easier to sell in this country. So forking out an extra $30 to DNA your bull while you're doing a blood test anyway wasn't that much extra, especially when we have to pay around $90 to test for BD1 and BD2.
There's always a bit of controversy when new rules are introduced into a society, but I hope everything works out for the best for you.
Inger
NZ
NZ
The critical point as to why your scheme is working well Inger is that it started with bull calves which were being registered. This is fair enough and in my view acceptable and sensible. In our case it is the retrospective element (getting the sire's and dam's DNA) which is likely to cause the trouble. If we had been warned 10 months ago that any future calves will need their parent's DNA tested then this scheme would have swung into action with I suspect the blessing of almost everyone. I've just sent off my shorties' DNA for testing to see if they are carriers, I didn't ask for DNA because I couldn't at that time work out what it was for. Just my luck if I have to do it all again.:p
Sylvia, just give them a ring and get them to add DNA to the test requests. It barely needs any more blood, so there shouldn't be any problem getting it done.
Yes, as you say, the members should have been given notice of this change. We had a 2 year warning that this new ruling would come into effect on a certain date. By then, a lot of us were testing for the C gene anyway, so it was no big deal to request the DNA on our bulls. It shounds like your Council needs to learn a few communication skills, to keep its members heading in the same direction as Council wants to go. Its a lot easier to lead, when others are prepared to follow you. ???
Yes, as you say, the members should have been given notice of this change. We had a 2 year warning that this new ruling would come into effect on a certain date. By then, a lot of us were testing for the C gene anyway, so it was no big deal to request the DNA on our bulls. It shounds like your Council needs to learn a few communication skills, to keep its members heading in the same direction as Council wants to go. Its a lot easier to lead, when others are prepared to follow you. ???
Inger
NZ
NZ