Dexter Sale at Exeter Livestock Market

[Boofarm]

Beef
No sales of breeding stock allowed. Assuming you had sufficient numbers, if you never bought animals in and used only home bred stock could you make it pay at the present time? Would you need to maintain a pedigree herd if you were beefing them if the certification scheme does not affect the price?

Well I would hope so as part of a unit, however I have to confess that we do not separate the dexters in the accounts so I cannot at present give a definitive answer - I know what we get off them but would need to apportion costs to them.Certainly at present the Dexters can only survive as part of a business - it would take a long long time to get a market large enough to sustain a business on dexter beef alone if that is what you are asking.

I do not believe we have any need to maintain a pedigree herd to sustain sales at present levels but choose to do so in the hope that the Certification Scheme will assist in building up a market.

From my own perspective I beef a very small number in a 12 month period. I have a loyal customer base who more often than not place an order whenever I am going to send something in. At times I do get a little concerned that there won't be enough to go round and more often than not go short myself up the point where I feel like sneaking one in the freezer and not telling anyone. Speaking to other people it seems that you can sell the beef in the quantity that I do without too much of a problem but beyond that it is an uphill struggle.

Agreed - currently shifting 6-8 animals a year and trying to expand

Since getting a commercial contract with a supermarket is not going to happen. Where do you see the future of the Dexter? Every time the cry of 'we must move forward' is heard, more effort is put into marketing. We then seem to get an influx of enthusiastic recruits who build up some stock 'fail to launch' and drop out almost as quickly as they came in. Is there any justification for encouraging start-ups purely for the production of beef or is it to remain a very limited sideline as part of a modest pedigree breeding programme to keep prices stable?

From my own perspective I see the Dexter as remaining primarily as hobby cattle, there is a niche market for beef but frankly on any scale there are other native breeds more suited to commercial farming. I would not encourage start-ups into beef production other than for their own or family use. I can pursue my line because I have other lines of business and can take a long term view. I am also quite prepared to outcross Dexter cows to other bulls with a view to herd expansion by retaining females and having marketable store steers. I have the space to run a couple of bulls and not everyone has that luxury.

What would be of great interest to me is a co-operative marketing option - I have plenty of scope to produce cattle but no time to get into farmers markets, web sales or other such outlets.

Cheers
mac

[Jac]

Mac said
Well I would hope so as part of a unit, however I have to confess that we do not separate the dexters in the accounts so I cannot at present give a definitive answer - I know what we get off them but would need to apportion costs to them.

I do exactly the same - don't split it off from live sales but now I have proportioned costs and it is scary. Something like £11.43 to break even but that's a steer. Then you have the older cows and the prime female carcases ( but they have to go as I am very particular what I retain and what I sell to other people).

What would be of great interest to me is a co-operative marketing option - I have plenty of scope to produce cattle but no time to get into farmers markets, web sales or other such outlets.

When I first started I wanted to get a similar thing going thought we could all take it in turns to man the operation selling our own stock (since the market wanted you to take a stall all the time) - nobody wanted to know. I thought right then, we could do a web site and the orders could be routed to the nearest supplier - waste of time. I hate to say this but there are so many folk operating under the radar (each to his own, live and let live and all that) but I don't want to be sucked in and work with those not registered with EH. The thing I can't understand is what some pubs and restaurants are putting in their 'product intake forms'? Rant over. Sorry to be so negative but I have just given up now and do my own thing.

[bjreroberts]

Mac said

What would be of great interest to me is a co-operative marketing option - I have plenty of scope to produce cattle but no time to get into farmers markets, web sales or other such outlets.

When I first started I wanted to get a similar thing going thought we could all take it in turns to man the operation selling our own stock (since the market wanted you to take a stall all the time) - nobody wanted to know. I thought right then, we could do a web site and the orders could be routed to the nearest supplier - waste of time. I hate to say this but there are so many folk operating under the radar (each to his own, live and let live and all that) but I don't want to be sucked in and work with those not registered with EH. The thing I can't understand is what some pubs and restaurants are putting in their 'product intake forms'? Rant over. Sorry to be so negative but I have just given up now and do my own thing.

Really, I am no expert, but lack of EH registration is not an issue the Dexter schemes I'm aware of. Or do you mean it is an general issue with the supply of beef to that market sector?

[Jac]

https://www.scoresonthedoors.org.uk

Very low risk shows an 'Exempt' category but I believe (or so my EH tells me) that everyone should have one by now not just eateries. It is well known that any unofficial supply is not conducive to obtaining the correct price and that doesn't matter whether it is beef or bread - it still affects the price.

The DCS is doing what it can with the certification scheme. I am full of sympathy for people having to eke a living from their livestock in any way possible whether they are members of the DCS or not. If the returns were better then any additional costs could be born. I don't know what the answer is. I don't think anybody does.

[bjreroberts]

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but I don't see the how Environmental Health regulations prevent co-operative marketing schemes working.

I am not currently participating in such a scheme, but have in the past. We supplied outlets via the local abattoir and therefore the EH regulations are between the abattoir and the customer, it is up to them to ensure all the necessary HACCP procedures are followed. In such cases with whole animals it is not necessary to be EH registered, but even for primary cuts it is not complicated.

[Jac]

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but I don't see the how Environmental Health regulations prevent co-operative marketing schemes working.

That's just it you see everyone wants to be a farmer and not a retailer. Any coop as I see would mean that everyone would have to do their bit as a retailer - Just one example agree to form a group to take an animal a month for a block booking on a market stall. The costs of being compliant to some just didn't make it worth bothering with.

You could form a coop and go round all the retail outlets there is hardly any margin producing the beef as it is. How is the administration going to be paid for in order for the scheme to operate let alone employ a sales force?

Most people are either working for themselves or working for someone else and this is just a hobby like Mac said - long term view. Other issues aside in order to make something work you have to have your eye on the prize and not be distracted from it. I don't think folk have got the confidence or commitment to make it happen on a large enough scale and I will be the first to hold my hand up and say - guilty as charged.

[Boofarm]

I do exactly the same - don't split it off from live sales but now I have proportioned costs and it is scary. Something like £11.43 to break even but that's a steer. Then you have the older cows and the prime female carcases ( but they have to go as I am very particular what I retain and what I sell to other people).

Jac - Just to be totally clear £11.43 is your overall average price per Kg of produt sold?

Cheers
mac

[Boofarm]

That's just it you see everyone wants to be a farmer and not a retailer. Any coop as I see would mean that everyone would have to do their bit as a retailer - Just one example agree to form a group to take an animal a month for a block booking on a market stall. The costs of being compliant to some just didn't make it worth bothering with.

Just to stir the pot a bit that is not a co-operative I would be able to work in - it would be the worst of all worlds for me in that I would have an equal share of all obligations. What I would be much more interested in is something with a bit of synergy - i.e. supplying beef to someone who is already doing the farmers market or running a webshop but not self -sufficient in beef. I have made some approaches to various folks but with no success to date.

You could form a coop and go round all the retail outlets there is hardly any margin producing the beef as it is. How is the administration going to be paid for in order for the scheme to operate let alone employ a sales force?

To take the discussion forward there is possibly a good model for running such a co-op in the way that share clubs operate, it also allows for people joining and leaving over time.

[Jac]

I do exactly the same - don't split it off from live sales but now I have proportioned costs and it is scary. Something like £11.43 to break even but that's a steer. Then you have the older cows and the prime female carcases ( but they have to go as I am very particular what I retain and what I sell to other people).

Jac - Just to be totally clear £11.43 is your overall average price per Kg of produt sold?

Cheers
mac

No I don't even want to tell you the overall average price - you would weep!

[Jac]

If you can suggest a scheme Mac whereby all participants can be in a win win situation financially then I am all ears.

[Jac]

Of course, if folk don't want to beef the females (and they are not too small) provided they have the space available they could always cross them with a smaller commercial and sell them through the normal commercial route.

[Rob R]

I would just like to say how disappointed I was with the sale at Exeter, we entered 24, what waste of time and effort. We spent all day the day before cleaning and clipping them, ready for the sale and they looked lovely.
I had high hopes for good prices but was sadly disappointed, if the Dexter breed is to survive people need to be educated on what a decent price for a Dexter is as there seems to be too many people wanting them cheap.
As a society we should all have a set price for certain age or type of Dexter sold eg a standard price for cow and calf.At least some sort of guidance and make sure people who want them pay a decent price, if we all stuck together we could change how people think because if we don't I can't see a future for Dexters.
How sad!

It is always disapointing not to achieve what you consider a realistic price but it is unlikely that the poor prices were a result of too many people wanting them cheap, rather too few people wanting them at all.

That's exactly it - noone sat around the ring (or anywhere else for that matter) owes you a penny nor are they obliged to take a Dexter home with them at the end of the day.

It's important to remember that there is at least one buyer for every animal at every sale and it is they who set the price. If you are not prepared to pay that price for your own animal and take them home then you can't expect anyone else to. Unless you can see value on them then you are simply offloading a liability as opposed to trading on an asset.

Vendors know their animals and their genetics inside out but the vast majority of purchasers will be walking into that mart completely blind. The catalogue is probably the only source of information they have so really sell them in the description. They probably don't even know they want a Dexter and as you're 99% likely to be selling to someone who doesn't need to make money out of them then they need to be sold the advantage of spending a large amount of their disposable income on a Dexter. The biggest hurdle you've got to get over is persuading people to take a trailer with them to the sale, as plenty are just there for a nice day out looking at sheep, cows & pigs.

Remember too that this forum is a (free) public advert - if folks are googling dexter cattle for sale they're going to find this forum and they're not inclined to pay more for a few scant details and admissions that you need to get rid before winter. Forget your insider knowledge & try to look at everything from the buyers perspective. Complaining about prices on here is the equivalent of kicking the judge at a show.

Dexters are, IMO, the best breed there is. They produce fantastic, healthy beef on a diet that wouldn't maintain most breeds and are much easier on the soil because of their small size. They'll never compete with a bigger breed though on size so I think it's a waste of time, energy & money trying to make them into something they're not. There's also a lot of genetic variation in the breed, which is great for adaptability and hardiness, but it will hit prices if you need to finish them all to the same timescale. Sure you can reduce variation but then you're getting onto the same treadmill that commercial breeds are on and they loose their intrinsic value as an animal.

The two q's, quality and quantity, tend to be used interchangeably these days but you see it in all breeds and even crops, the more volume they produce, the greater the loss of other traits such as fertility or longevity. Butchers used to have the skills to make the best money of any animal, but in the modern, supermarket-led world all expectations seem to be on homogenity. I know that at a sale, fewer people will bid on the best animals.

[Jac]

Rob wrote:

I know that at a sale, fewer people will bid on the best animals.

Then why take them?

[Saffy]

Fewer people bid on the best because they are going to make the most...lots will bid on the worse, thinner etc as they are hoping for a "bargain." Or they just want the chance to bid and will drop out before the hammer falls and don't want to take the risk on the more expensive when there will be fewer bids anyway!

Yesterday I sold some Herdwick sheep at a specialist sale and for the first time brought a good many home, the ones I sold made poor prices and I will just take a handful next time.

Stephanie

[Duncan MacIntyre]

The seller and the auctioneer both have a very important role to play in determining just how good a price can be obtained.

The seller should not just arrive at the sale with a nervous dirty unhandleable animal. They should spend some time beforehand getting the animal used to being handled, preferably halter trained. This does not take huge number of man (or woman) hours for each one. I have my weaned calves used to being tied up and they do not forget it. I sold 6 cows and heifers at auctions this year. The older cows had been haltered for a sale and taken home two years ago, so were reasonably easy. The four heifers were all 27 months old and not handled since calves. They spent the week before each sale in an oldfashioned byre, and taken for a very short (3minutes max) walk round the yard on a halter once or sometimes twice each day for that week only. The calves at foot were April born, never handled till that week, same amount of halter work as the heifers. Then when at the sale, have them haltered in the pen, stay with them as much as possible and take time to speak to everyone who even glances at them. Let prospective buyers into the pen and let them see how they are quiet and handleable, find out why they want Dexters and discuss how yours would suit their purpose. Sometimes though the buyer is not the person you are talking to, but the other buyer standing beside just watching and listening.

The auctioneer is very important, and should be in possession of all the notes sent in with the entries, take time to introduce the seller in the ring, give the buyers as much info about the herd as he has, he should know the difference between a good one and a bad one himself and he should spend a bit extra time encouraging bids for a good one if the bidding stops too soon.

I think I got the top price for a female at both Lanark and Carlisle, neither were embarassingly high but the best we could get on the day. They were probably not the best show type animals either, but sold well because of attention paid to the job of selling. The difference a really good auctioneer makes is the difference between top of £530 at Lanark and £750 at Carlise. Neither really high enough, but in the current market we have to accept that.


Duncan