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Duncan
Purity
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Duncan MacIntyre
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Purity
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Mark Bowles
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Re: Purity
Very interesting, thanks for highlighting it. I have Platinum in my pedigrees, more than 5 generations back now. Does it really mean anything to prove or disprove the purity, it certainly changes nothing out in my fields where my cattle are still the same no matter what the outcome!
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JamsHundred
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Re: Purity
First, the Saltaire Platinum pedigree as published online by DCS in incorrect and members of council on this board should have it corrected forthwith.
1. Modern science nor a comparison of DNA markers will support novel mutation. Was this ever a heartfelt belief at any rate? Duncan himself on this chat board has posted the most logical theory which is a mis-identification of two heifer calves born quite close together. That means special exceptions are required because the dam would have been appendix and no male offspring registered so I assume novel mutation was a more acceptable solution to bringing in the polled?
2 in the 1969 registry records.....A169 you will find the ancestor Homer Rixey Piella. Sire was a non recorded non registered. This registration was changed to a different sire at a later date, then rechanged again on the registry file card of which I have a copy. When advised of this the importer of semen to the US has verified, in writing, that she checked and verified the 1969 entry is the correct entry. DCS shoukd correct the online entry....but again, this creates a problem for male offspring.
The UK has always accepted and embraced outcrossing, however the leadership in the US has never permitted US breeders an upgrading program, and traditional breeders have unfairly had to compete with upgraded imports.
Which brings me to the information Duncan has copied. The first fad in the US was dun after the arrival of Woodmagic to North America. The second fad was red after Lucifer was imported, and problematic dispositions in a number of male offspring were discounted or excused for the lucrative sale prices. By immense proportions the polled fad has taken it's toll on the US herd. Over 90% of all registrations in ADCA descend by only a few generations, with multiple inclusions in the pedigrees, from this one bull.
DNA testing in the US is just barely past a decade in practice. The percentage od tested animals in the UCD database will likely exceed the 90% of general registrations because ADCA only required bulls to be tested and those who tested entire herds were predominantly polled breeders.
Therefore, the report Duncan has published, is, for all intents and purposes, Saltaire Platinum being compared to himself. It is meaningless unless and until the evaluation is done only with US animals that have no modern imports in the mix.
Council members . The mistakes published in the online pedigree have devastated the US herd. Please have them corrected. Our entire herd nears 95% descended from one bull solely because Of these errors which gave an inaccurate account of the actual pedigree.
1. Modern science nor a comparison of DNA markers will support novel mutation. Was this ever a heartfelt belief at any rate? Duncan himself on this chat board has posted the most logical theory which is a mis-identification of two heifer calves born quite close together. That means special exceptions are required because the dam would have been appendix and no male offspring registered so I assume novel mutation was a more acceptable solution to bringing in the polled?
2 in the 1969 registry records.....A169 you will find the ancestor Homer Rixey Piella. Sire was a non recorded non registered. This registration was changed to a different sire at a later date, then rechanged again on the registry file card of which I have a copy. When advised of this the importer of semen to the US has verified, in writing, that she checked and verified the 1969 entry is the correct entry. DCS shoukd correct the online entry....but again, this creates a problem for male offspring.
The UK has always accepted and embraced outcrossing, however the leadership in the US has never permitted US breeders an upgrading program, and traditional breeders have unfairly had to compete with upgraded imports.
Which brings me to the information Duncan has copied. The first fad in the US was dun after the arrival of Woodmagic to North America. The second fad was red after Lucifer was imported, and problematic dispositions in a number of male offspring were discounted or excused for the lucrative sale prices. By immense proportions the polled fad has taken it's toll on the US herd. Over 90% of all registrations in ADCA descend by only a few generations, with multiple inclusions in the pedigrees, from this one bull.
DNA testing in the US is just barely past a decade in practice. The percentage od tested animals in the UCD database will likely exceed the 90% of general registrations because ADCA only required bulls to be tested and those who tested entire herds were predominantly polled breeders.
Therefore, the report Duncan has published, is, for all intents and purposes, Saltaire Platinum being compared to himself. It is meaningless unless and until the evaluation is done only with US animals that have no modern imports in the mix.
Council members . The mistakes published in the online pedigree have devastated the US herd. Please have them corrected. Our entire herd nears 95% descended from one bull solely because Of these errors which gave an inaccurate account of the actual pedigree.
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Duncan MacIntyre
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Re: Purity
"They also compared Saltaire Platinum with "Traditional and Legacy" Dexters in the Legacy Database, and found that he matched them very well."
Read more: http://dextercattle.proboards.com/threa ... z3p6MN36Ze
Read more: http://dextercattle.proboards.com/threa ... z3p6MN36Ze
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JamsHundred
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Re: Purity
Duncan,
Need a little help here! I keep reading and re-reading that UCD report and I do NOT see the quote you posted! Come on, Duncan. You have posted hearsay at best, conjecture at worse. Neither admissible by law. You posted commentary by a chat board participant as if it were fact!
You still have to filter the hearsay by the stats. There are less than 15 percent of ALL animals in that database that do not have Saltaire Platinum in the pedigree. Of that percent there are less than 1 per cent that do not have Woodmagic in the pedigree, and we know that SP has multiple entries of Woodmagic in his pedigree.
Based on that extended information. . . . . . the samples are still representative of the Saltaire Platinum pedigree and not the pedigrees of the preservation bloodlines. I restate my point. . . the analysis compared Saltaire Platinum to himself !
But, let us go a step further. The analysis, based overwhelmingly on his own descendents, uses the term "purebred". Is that not a pedigree definition? Let's then discuss the pedigree because he is NOT a purebred bull by pedigree.
1. Godstone Esmeralda. Untested, unknown, unproven parentage. Science will not support a novel mutation - so it leaves either an accidental outcrossing with a polled animal, or a confusion of identity as to heifer calves born about the same time, earmarks out of order, and one heifer being birthed by a polled appendix cow.
2. Homer Rixey Piella - Appendix A169 (CORRECTION - A138, 1969 herd book) Unknown, unregistered crossed sire.
These two entries are in a FOUR line pedigree. There are two other appendix entries in the pedigree, A16 Doesmead Belinda, and Juliana A6.
There is no analytical paper that can be devised to erase the facts of the pedigree.
The more disturbing factor of this pedigree is the polledness. It is genetically engineering a unique, rare, heritage breed from a horned breed to a polled breed in the US where less than 10% of all registrations are polled, sizes are increasing dramatically, the original phenotype is nearly lost, the incidences of aggression in bulls and calving difficulties, including unheard of reports of dead calves litter the pages of the internet.
How on earth do we reverse this disaster?
Judy
Need a little help here! I keep reading and re-reading that UCD report and I do NOT see the quote you posted! Come on, Duncan. You have posted hearsay at best, conjecture at worse. Neither admissible by law. You posted commentary by a chat board participant as if it were fact!
You still have to filter the hearsay by the stats. There are less than 15 percent of ALL animals in that database that do not have Saltaire Platinum in the pedigree. Of that percent there are less than 1 per cent that do not have Woodmagic in the pedigree, and we know that SP has multiple entries of Woodmagic in his pedigree.
Based on that extended information. . . . . . the samples are still representative of the Saltaire Platinum pedigree and not the pedigrees of the preservation bloodlines. I restate my point. . . the analysis compared Saltaire Platinum to himself !
But, let us go a step further. The analysis, based overwhelmingly on his own descendents, uses the term "purebred". Is that not a pedigree definition? Let's then discuss the pedigree because he is NOT a purebred bull by pedigree.
1. Godstone Esmeralda. Untested, unknown, unproven parentage. Science will not support a novel mutation - so it leaves either an accidental outcrossing with a polled animal, or a confusion of identity as to heifer calves born about the same time, earmarks out of order, and one heifer being birthed by a polled appendix cow.
2. Homer Rixey Piella - Appendix A169 (CORRECTION - A138, 1969 herd book) Unknown, unregistered crossed sire.
These two entries are in a FOUR line pedigree. There are two other appendix entries in the pedigree, A16 Doesmead Belinda, and Juliana A6.
There is no analytical paper that can be devised to erase the facts of the pedigree.
The more disturbing factor of this pedigree is the polledness. It is genetically engineering a unique, rare, heritage breed from a horned breed to a polled breed in the US where less than 10% of all registrations are polled, sizes are increasing dramatically, the original phenotype is nearly lost, the incidences of aggression in bulls and calving difficulties, including unheard of reports of dead calves litter the pages of the internet.
How on earth do we reverse this disaster?
Judy
Last edited by JamsHundred on Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kirk- Cascade Herd US
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Re: Purity
1. 99.9 % of all dexters born before 2000 do not have parentage verifications. ALL pedigrees likely have some degree of error, and likely have some degree of intrusion somewhere on their 10 generation pedigrees from other non-dexter bulls. But those occasional intrusions, since the very beginnings of the breed, have helped make the Dexter breed what it is. Dexters have a very colorful background... they ALL descended from non-Dexters.
2. 99% of all Dexters in America, including most all of the "purest" of American Dexters, descend from Parndon Charley pudding and Round Chimney Roly Poly and they have big holes in their immediate pedigrees. The irrational American Purists just sweep those holes under a rug, while ranting and raving about a distant hole on Saltaire Platinum's pedigree. By pedigree, Saltaire Platinum is MUCH more pure than Round Chimney's Roly Poly
http://legacydextercattleregistry.com/p ... gno=EM1633
3. The good news is that genetics experts tell us that outcrossing and old holes on distant pedigrees can actually be GOOD for a pure breed. Here is an article from Dr. Sponenberg who is a genetics EXPERT at preserving old heritage breeds of livestock. He discusses how grading-up is a very useful tool to PRESERVE old heritage breeds.
http://www.oocities.org/horsesnewmexcom/gradingup.htm
4. The genetics study of Saltaire Platinum was conducted personally by a PHD Genetics Expert at UC Davis. The purpose of the study was to see if Saltaire Platinum was similar to American Dexters with NO Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree, OR if he had dna traces of other breeds. She did NOT compare Saltaire Platinum to himself nor any of his descendants. Saltaire Platinum compares nicely to "traditional" American Dexters and that was personally communicated to us by the PHD Genetics Expert at UCD.
5. Saltaire Platinum was 42 inches at 3 years of age (well within the American Breed Standard and the UK standard), and most of the shortest non-chondro AI bulls in America descend from him.... Meanwhile, most of the LARGEST AI bulls in America, do NOT descend from Saltaire Platinum. If anything, Saltaire Platinum has reduced the heights of non-chondro Dexters in America.
This true-short non-chondro young cow and her 39 pound calf have Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree 17 times
6. Saltaire Platinum only has 66 registered offspring in America and half of those were horned.... Considering he is 25 year old AI bull, 66 calves is very low usage. Here are some of Saltaire Platinum's offspring
7. A good number of American back-yard breeders have bred pet-quality dexters over the years with no attention to selecting for quality mothers who can easily give birth to robust calves. Instead of selecting for female genetics that are excellent at easily passing robust calves, those pet-quality breeders have selected for tinier and tinier calves and accidentally selected for females that can have trouble giving birth to normal sized calves. When those pet-quality females are bred on any Dexter bulls that throw good robust calves, those females can have trouble.... Those females that aren't structured with the ability to easily pass robust calves should be culled. We've bred 150 polled dexter calves on our farm, and have only had to assist in one birth (a breach birth).
8. The polled bulls on our farm descend from Lucifer of Knotting and Saltaire Platinum and they are exceptionally trustworthy and friendly. This one (Cascade's Bracken) was 42" at 3 years of age and is very friendly as are all our breeding bulls.
8. The extreme popularity of polled dexters in America, has helped make horned dexters more popular too. The number of Horned Dexters registered annually in America today has nearly tripled since 1990 (before the polled gene). There is no crisis. There are more registered horned dexters than ever before and polled breeders are happy to see the lovely pictures of horned Dexters. In our area of the US, polled and horned breeders work with each other to promote each other's herds.
9. The critical must-have features of Dexters have never included horns and that's why many breeders have de-horned dexters for many, many decades before the polled gene became available. The polled gene is simply the most humane method to remove horns. If horns were a critical "Must-have" feature in Dexters, then we never would have allowed de-horning of any sort. What are the critical must-have features of Dexters?... Compact size, friendly and un-intimidating bulls and cows, trouble-free health/easy calving, multi-purpose (beef and dairy and sometimes working oxen).
Bottom Line: Ancient Pedigrees are historically interesting, but are of no use in making certain that we continue to select Dexters for their must-have distinctive features. So put those ancient pedigrees aside for a while and get out in the pastures and make good selection decisions... that's the ONLY thing that will preserve our wonderful Dexters and their MUST-HAVE features.
2. 99% of all Dexters in America, including most all of the "purest" of American Dexters, descend from Parndon Charley pudding and Round Chimney Roly Poly and they have big holes in their immediate pedigrees. The irrational American Purists just sweep those holes under a rug, while ranting and raving about a distant hole on Saltaire Platinum's pedigree. By pedigree, Saltaire Platinum is MUCH more pure than Round Chimney's Roly Poly
http://legacydextercattleregistry.com/p ... gno=EM1633
3. The good news is that genetics experts tell us that outcrossing and old holes on distant pedigrees can actually be GOOD for a pure breed. Here is an article from Dr. Sponenberg who is a genetics EXPERT at preserving old heritage breeds of livestock. He discusses how grading-up is a very useful tool to PRESERVE old heritage breeds.
http://www.oocities.org/horsesnewmexcom/gradingup.htm
4. The genetics study of Saltaire Platinum was conducted personally by a PHD Genetics Expert at UC Davis. The purpose of the study was to see if Saltaire Platinum was similar to American Dexters with NO Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree, OR if he had dna traces of other breeds. She did NOT compare Saltaire Platinum to himself nor any of his descendants. Saltaire Platinum compares nicely to "traditional" American Dexters and that was personally communicated to us by the PHD Genetics Expert at UCD.
5. Saltaire Platinum was 42 inches at 3 years of age (well within the American Breed Standard and the UK standard), and most of the shortest non-chondro AI bulls in America descend from him.... Meanwhile, most of the LARGEST AI bulls in America, do NOT descend from Saltaire Platinum. If anything, Saltaire Platinum has reduced the heights of non-chondro Dexters in America.
This true-short non-chondro young cow and her 39 pound calf have Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree 17 times
6. Saltaire Platinum only has 66 registered offspring in America and half of those were horned.... Considering he is 25 year old AI bull, 66 calves is very low usage. Here are some of Saltaire Platinum's offspring
7. A good number of American back-yard breeders have bred pet-quality dexters over the years with no attention to selecting for quality mothers who can easily give birth to robust calves. Instead of selecting for female genetics that are excellent at easily passing robust calves, those pet-quality breeders have selected for tinier and tinier calves and accidentally selected for females that can have trouble giving birth to normal sized calves. When those pet-quality females are bred on any Dexter bulls that throw good robust calves, those females can have trouble.... Those females that aren't structured with the ability to easily pass robust calves should be culled. We've bred 150 polled dexter calves on our farm, and have only had to assist in one birth (a breach birth).
8. The polled bulls on our farm descend from Lucifer of Knotting and Saltaire Platinum and they are exceptionally trustworthy and friendly. This one (Cascade's Bracken) was 42" at 3 years of age and is very friendly as are all our breeding bulls.
8. The extreme popularity of polled dexters in America, has helped make horned dexters more popular too. The number of Horned Dexters registered annually in America today has nearly tripled since 1990 (before the polled gene). There is no crisis. There are more registered horned dexters than ever before and polled breeders are happy to see the lovely pictures of horned Dexters. In our area of the US, polled and horned breeders work with each other to promote each other's herds.
9. The critical must-have features of Dexters have never included horns and that's why many breeders have de-horned dexters for many, many decades before the polled gene became available. The polled gene is simply the most humane method to remove horns. If horns were a critical "Must-have" feature in Dexters, then we never would have allowed de-horning of any sort. What are the critical must-have features of Dexters?... Compact size, friendly and un-intimidating bulls and cows, trouble-free health/easy calving, multi-purpose (beef and dairy and sometimes working oxen).
Bottom Line: Ancient Pedigrees are historically interesting, but are of no use in making certain that we continue to select Dexters for their must-have distinctive features. So put those ancient pedigrees aside for a while and get out in the pastures and make good selection decisions... that's the ONLY thing that will preserve our wonderful Dexters and their MUST-HAVE features.
Re: Purity
You have summarised my thoughts very well on this subject and in particular the two paragraphs above. Unless you have an animal that is almost entirely homozygous, you're going to get things cropping up in breeding and where these features threaten the animal's ability to survive and thrive in you simply shouldn't breed from them, pedigree or no pedigree.Kirk- Cascade Herd US wrote: 9. The critical must-have features of Dexters have never included horns and that's why many breeders have de-horned dexters for many, many decades before the polled gene became available. The polled gene is simply the most humane method to remove horns. If horns were a critical "Must-have" feature in Dexters, then we never would have allowed de-horning of any sort. What are the critical must-have features of Dexters?... Compact size, friendly and un-intimidating bulls and cows, trouble-free health/easy calving, multi-purpose (beef and dairy and sometimes working oxen).
Bottom Line: Ancient Pedigrees are historically interesting, but are of no use in making certain that we continue to select Dexters for their must-have distinctive features. So put those ancient pedigrees aside for a while and get out in the pastures and make good selection decisions... that's the ONLY thing that will preserve our wonderful Dexters and their MUST-HAVE features.
I made reference recently, on this board (in another thread), towards using pedigrees to identify animals that I would want in my herd but I don't choose animals on pedigree alone - I can identify the possibles from the pedigree but if the animal doesn't physically look like it'll do well on my farm, I don't want to breed from it. I've only ever bought one animal on pedigree alone and that was a mistake.
Horns aren't important to many breeders and it seems an odd thing to get hung up on if you're going to take them off anyway. Here it is very unusual to see show Dexters with horns and I think if horns are so important to a breed then dehorned animals should be severely downgraded where they are judged, as it is impossible to judge something that has been purposefully removed.
At the end of the day breeds are no more 'pure' than the current set of herd owners and the types they are selecting within the breed. Breeds and breeding are fluid and individual and whilst a breed standard may introduce a degree of physical conformity within a breed, it is no more useful to the sucess of the breed under a particular environment than the way the wind is blowing.
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Duncan MacIntyre
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Re: Purity
Judy, I cut and pasted the quote from the posting on a North American board where I got the link to the the report. When I pasted it the link appeared automatically beneath it.
I take the view that a breed is a living pool of genetic material, it must have variety within the pool to survive long term, and it must have areas within that pool which are slightly different from others.These are our main distinctive blood lines. As others have alluded to every herd book will have errors, and most will have recognised instances of introgression. As long as we are selecting for the breed standard we have nothing to fear. We have to allow for the fact that certain aspects of breed standard may from time to time be altered by the governing body. We as individuals may agree or disagree, but the changes made in such a way will be legitimate.
You ask how do we reverse this disaster. I do not think we have a disaster. But we will if the constant sniping at our historical herd registers goes on much further. Those of us who believe in allowing all breeders to have their own preferences within the breed standard must make a stand against the destructive elements seeking to destroy the credibility of our breed records. I do not deny that there may be errors in these records, but at the end of the day if we select for the breed standard, as the generations move on, we keep the breed authentic. There is no need to destroy others breeding efforts just for self glorification.
Thank you Kirk for an eloquent post making a lot of sense.
Duncan
I take the view that a breed is a living pool of genetic material, it must have variety within the pool to survive long term, and it must have areas within that pool which are slightly different from others.These are our main distinctive blood lines. As others have alluded to every herd book will have errors, and most will have recognised instances of introgression. As long as we are selecting for the breed standard we have nothing to fear. We have to allow for the fact that certain aspects of breed standard may from time to time be altered by the governing body. We as individuals may agree or disagree, but the changes made in such a way will be legitimate.
You ask how do we reverse this disaster. I do not think we have a disaster. But we will if the constant sniping at our historical herd registers goes on much further. Those of us who believe in allowing all breeders to have their own preferences within the breed standard must make a stand against the destructive elements seeking to destroy the credibility of our breed records. I do not deny that there may be errors in these records, but at the end of the day if we select for the breed standard, as the generations move on, we keep the breed authentic. There is no need to destroy others breeding efforts just for self glorification.
Thank you Kirk for an eloquent post making a lot of sense.
Duncan
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Duncan MacIntyre
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Re: Purity
I have checked the pedigree of Saltaire Platinum on the DCS online herdbook, and there appear to be several differences between that and the Legacy database. Since the DCS herdbook is the place where Platinum's birth details and full registration as a bull were carried out I would question any difference from it. We cannot have herdbook details disputed many years later. If we go far enough back in most lines we come to some sort of dead end, even in the so called "original population" of UK Dexters. Many of these discrepancies come something like 10 generations back. Except where intense inbreeding alters things, after 10 generations there is less than one tenth of one percent of the introduced genes anyway, so as I have said before and will repeat as often as anyone will listen, if we are selecting for breed standard there is absolutely nothing to fear.
I may, out of interest, check my photocopy of the DCS birth records to see who has entered the original information online. However, I see no point in endless debate about unknown and unproven detail.
The enthusiasm of those on both sides of the Atlantic for "original population" would be far better directed to helping ensure that breed standard is adhered to by all breeders.
Duncan
I may, out of interest, check my photocopy of the DCS birth records to see who has entered the original information online. However, I see no point in endless debate about unknown and unproven detail.
The enthusiasm of those on both sides of the Atlantic for "original population" would be far better directed to helping ensure that breed standard is adhered to by all breeders.
Duncan
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Kirk- Cascade Herd US
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Re: Purity
Concerning Dexter Phenotypes in America,
Here's a "Legacy " Dexter promoted as the purest of pure dexters by the purists in the US... This is Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy born in 1991. The purists pumped her for embryos in an attempt to save her type (while at the same time, complaining about other folks breeding red hornless dexters).
Here is a polled descendant of Saltaire Platinum that is a widely advertised AI bull (Belle Fourche Mr. Right)... He is what many red polled breeders in the US are selecting for
It turns out that red polled Dexter breeders in the US, are selecting for a very old traditional Legacy phenotype, matching Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermory and, in fact, Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy appears on the pedigrees of most Red Polled Dexters.
It seems hypocritical for the American purists to complain about red polled dexter breeders changing the look of dexters, while those same purists promote a very similar looking "legacy" red hornless (dehorned) dexter (Ms. Fermoy) and even pumping her for embryos.
Here's a "Legacy " Dexter promoted as the purest of pure dexters by the purists in the US... This is Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy born in 1991. The purists pumped her for embryos in an attempt to save her type (while at the same time, complaining about other folks breeding red hornless dexters).
Here is a polled descendant of Saltaire Platinum that is a widely advertised AI bull (Belle Fourche Mr. Right)... He is what many red polled breeders in the US are selecting for
It turns out that red polled Dexter breeders in the US, are selecting for a very old traditional Legacy phenotype, matching Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermory and, in fact, Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy appears on the pedigrees of most Red Polled Dexters.
It seems hypocritical for the American purists to complain about red polled dexter breeders changing the look of dexters, while those same purists promote a very similar looking "legacy" red hornless (dehorned) dexter (Ms. Fermoy) and even pumping her for embryos.
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Duncan MacIntyre
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Re: Purity
Perhaps Judy would explain why her Legacy database shows differences in some pedigrees compared to the DCS official herd book records.
Duncan
Duncan
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JamsHundred
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Re: Purity
Duncan,
Absolutely I would. All you have to do is ask with specific names
Judy
Absolutely I would. All you have to do is ask with specific names
Judy
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Duncan MacIntyre
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Re: Purity
Homer Rixey Piella - Appendix A169 Unknown, unregistered crossed sire.
Homer Rixey Piella is clearly listed in the list of registrations as sired by Runymede Bantam 1999 out of Woodmagic Petrel 2nd 7727
Templeton Juanita A169 is listed as sired by a Jersey bull out of Tempelton Husky 8343
I can see no mention of A16 or A6 anywhere in the pedigree of Platinum going back 7 generations.
Duncan
Homer Rixey Piella is clearly listed in the list of registrations as sired by Runymede Bantam 1999 out of Woodmagic Petrel 2nd 7727
Templeton Juanita A169 is listed as sired by a Jersey bull out of Tempelton Husky 8343
I can see no mention of A16 or A6 anywhere in the pedigree of Platinum going back 7 generations.
Duncan
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Mark Bowles
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Re: Purity
I don't really want to enter this debate but there are some simple things that stand out a little to a person that really does not have a great deal of interest.
Kirk, if Platinum was pure where did the polled come from, I see they compared to markers from 14 breeds but what about the british Red Poll, I am sure there was some kind of input from that breed somewhere way back?
Kirk, if Platinum was pure where did the polled come from, I see they compared to markers from 14 breeds but what about the british Red Poll, I am sure there was some kind of input from that breed somewhere way back?
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Duncan MacIntyre
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- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Re: Purity
Mark, the real reason for me being in this debate at all is simply because I can see far too much going on on both sides of the Atlantic which is damaging the historical records of the Dexter breed. Whilst there may well be mistakes in the records, by the time ten generations pass there is less than 1000th of the "mistake" DNA left. To throw about stories, rumours and down right misrepresentation about our official records of the breed is doing a lot of damage, and will do more in the future if we do not stop these people. You are in a better position than most to do something to help, by using your influence on Council.
What is much more important than ancient rumours is to encourage a more enlightened approach to breeding and the breed standard by as many breeders as possible. As others said at our AGM we must push for a new analysis of the breed to see what distinct breed lines are now identifiable, and to educate breeders on the importance of breeding lines.
My concern with Judy at the moment is that she is putting up pedigrees for animals on her Legacy database which are not the official pedigree record.
I am also concerned that some of our own UK so called "original population" do not stand up to scrutiny either, and this ridiculous obsession with the project is in danger of seriously damaging both the breed and the interests of the majority of breeders of UK Dexter cattle.
Duncan
What is much more important than ancient rumours is to encourage a more enlightened approach to breeding and the breed standard by as many breeders as possible. As others said at our AGM we must push for a new analysis of the breed to see what distinct breed lines are now identifiable, and to educate breeders on the importance of breeding lines.
My concern with Judy at the moment is that she is putting up pedigrees for animals on her Legacy database which are not the official pedigree record.
I am also concerned that some of our own UK so called "original population" do not stand up to scrutiny either, and this ridiculous obsession with the project is in danger of seriously damaging both the breed and the interests of the majority of breeders of UK Dexter cattle.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute