Pding a cow

[5471jenny]

Hi, hoping to draw on everyone's experience yet again I'm afraid!! My 4 yr old cow should be between 5-6 months in calf, I pd'd her yesterday, left it late in the hope it would be easy to feel a fetus and she miscarried her last calf quite late in the pregnancy so didn't want to upset nature by going in too early? Thing is I couldn't feel much, there was something hard by the tips of my fingers and something hard below but hard to distinguish what! I've only pd'd once before and that was my 9 yr old and she was easy and it was obvious! Hubby had a go as he used to pd the friesians back in our dairy days and he's not sure either as they're so small compared to the "full size" cows he's used to so doesn't want to commit! My question is really should we be able to feel the calf easily if there's one in there? Looking online I can only find a rough idea of fetus size in relation to gestation in full size cattle not a dinky Dexter! We have the vet coming out next week for routine visit so could add her into the mix and have her scanned but wondered if anyone had any ideas from my description, I appreciate it's incredibly difficult to give an answer without having a feel! Would she be obvious from looking at her from the outside? I haven't seen her in heat but she has occasionally mounted other cows? Many thanks in advance!

[Louisa Gidney]

I've very limited experience of having cows PD'd by vets. Mainly because in each case, the vet got it wrong! The empty cow was said to be in calf and the ones about half way through gestation were said to be empty. Fortunately I gave them the benefit of the doubt and kept them to due date. Unlike a friend who had had trouble getting a heifer in calf, had it PD'd as empty and was devastated when the abattoir found a well developed foetus. She gave up Dexters after that as she was so upset.

[ann]

mine vet usually scans any i may not be sure of, much easier with dexters and totally reliable and they don't charge any extra for the service

[Saffy]

I agree Ann scanning is a better way and also the bull seems very aware which ones are ...."a waste of his valuable time." Once one is in calf she is no longer of any consequence as far as he is concerned and he won't spend any time with her, I assume most bulls act in a similar manner.

Stephanie

[LISA]

Hello Jenny,
I will tell you a cautionary tale about P.Ding a cow yourself (and for anyone reading this site wondering what P.D means, it is Pregnancy Diagnose (by rectal examination) with hand alone or hand and Ultra scanning device).

Unless you are qualified to do this I would not. You could do serious harm to the cow or foetus.

I have heard of horror stories of people accidently aborting calves by doing what you have described, and in an extreme case even heard a horror story of a farmer perforating a cows bowel doing this.

P.Ding is very skilled, and takes many years for a vet to become very proficient at this (ditto scanning technicians) and takes hundreds if not thousands of cows to be really good. For this reason I will not allow student vets to practice P.Ding on our cattle. We did have a cow abort once after a student had given her a very long and rough examination (aborted next day). Our vet is very good and accurate at P.Ding by hand only from 8 weeks of pregnancy (fairly accurate at 30 days plus with scanner). We used to have a Spanish vet who had practiced on thousands of cattle in Mexico and was accurate by hand from 30 days of pregnancy, he was so good he could tell us how many days pregnant the cow was. Make sure you get an experienced (recommended by another farmer) large animal vet (and ideally one who also uses a scanner) and you will get an accurate diagnosis.

If you time your P.D work with your T.B teat it is more cost effective.

What you have described is potentially very dangerous.

Best Wishes Lisa Bell

[Rob R]

I have to ask Lisa, how do you get an experienced vet if you don't let them teach the students? Seems like a catch-22 situation.

[5471jenny]

Thankyou for all the replies, I think that's settled it, I'll have her scanned! I understand what you're saying Lisa, but as I said my hubby is experienced he used to do our friesians with no problems. I am learning but I read up on doing the job and the risks involved before I went anywhere near my first cow then had hubby help direct me on the finer points during it.

[LISA]

Hello Jenny, I hope my post did not come across as patronising (it certainly wasn't meant too be!). A lot of people who have never owed cattle before might have read your previous post and thought "I'll give that a go!" and regretted the consequences! Hope your cow is incalf by what ever diagnosis.

Rob - that is a tricky catch 22 isn't it, I will happily let students do most things and happy for them to inspect "barren" cows but will not let them P.D my most valuable cows (having learnt the hard way) or for example a cow that was difficult to get in calf. We had a student castrate a male calf last year, and it was horrendous (even the supervising vet was embarrassed!) he was never fully right afterwards, and we ended up shooting him (the calf not the vet!). It is very concerning that vets (once qualified) might have never performed things such as a caesarean or even a castration etc. Why cannot the colleges insist on a certain number of successful procedures in order to qualify? I absolutely understand they need to practice in order to become good, but just not on my animals (and not at full veterinary price). We have a superb vet at the moment who is about 40 years old, as a freshly qualified vet he was also highly competent, I guess it is an individual thing.

[5471jenny]

Hiya, no i was in no way patronised by your post, I completely agree there's a lot more to think about than just diving in, like you say there is a big risk of upsetting nature if you're not incredibly gentle and careful and know what your doing/being closely supervised!

[Rob R]

Ah, full price, perhaps not! And certainly not on the most expensive cows.

We have a similar dilemma with our vet, who can diagnose most things before he comes through the gate and is very fair as to what he does, and doesn't, charge for. The young vets mostly seem to charge for so much as glancing at an animal and then pot the broken leg at the wrong angle...

I think it is somthing that's only going to get worse with so few decent large animal vets attracted to the job, all because the margins are still so low.

[Saffy]

I would practice watching for bulling knowing which one it is and which one is just "jumping". I am sure you already know this with your background! But maybe not everyone. It is quite a skill set to have and once you have cracked this you should know which are in calf and when they were served or AId. This has pardon the pun served me well in all my days of dairy farming before I had my Dexters. I always watch very carefully for the cycle after the one that I hope the were impregnated to see if they come bulling again and hope to tick them off, although I do keep checking. This does away with the need for some PDing if I am lucky and gives me due dates these days as the bull doesn't keep a diary!!!

[Tim Watson]

In defence of young vets, and in no way disparaging senior vets, one of whom appears regularly on here!
Our vets are Torch farm vets who also have an equine wing. If I call in the morning someone is usually with me the same day. We now see the younger vets and are very happy to do so. Colin, who comes out to us most of the time, is the son of a dairy farmer and is superb with, not surprisingly, cattle, and horses. He knows where we are in terms of knowledge and also the stock we have and how to handle them. Liz is another that comes out, hugely experienced in sheep and cattle. The equine side also has a new young lady who, a bit like Colin grew up with horses as her father was a part of the Whitbread heavy horse team in Kent. They are all a pleasure to have visit and we pay for their expertise willingly. I can honestly say that since using them in 2009 I have never felt fleeced. We know they have a strong team of senior partners that we can access if and when we need but who also support the oncoming younger professionals.