Hello, and start up question.

[Rob R]

A crush or not doesn't really matter, as long as it's accounted for.

[Broomcroft]

If you are doing this commercially, then I think Jac is spot on. If I were starting again, I would buy in, not breed, especially with small numbers. That is if you have people within a reasonable distance who can supply you. Prices should be reasonable and to be honest, it's not worth (financially) doing the breeding IMO. If you are reliant on your own supply, breeding takes a long, long time, nothing like sheep. To get really good beef you could be taking your stock up nearer 30 months. Personally, I wouldn't buy from a market though, I'd try and find direct supply from regular people you get to know and vice-versa.

Personally, I think steers are better than heifers. They grow faster and bigger, more beef, and I think it usually tastes slightly better/stronger flavour.

Just my thoughts! Good luck whatever you do.

PS. It's what we're doing. We're coming out of breeding but will still do beef, but buy in weaners if I can find them.

_

[Rob R]

PS. It's what we're doing. We're coming out of breeding but will still do beef, but buy in weaners if I can find them.

_

That's the main issue; in my experience steers are much easier to find in very wet or very dry years and much harder (or more expensive) when the grass is in good supply. If you need a constant supply, as with a retail business, continuity is much easier to maintain if you control the whole process. It also means mixing stock less, as few suppliers of steers have sufficient numbers to maintain separate farm groups.

[Jac]

But because of the way I want to take the business I'd rather buy in some cattle and have control over what we're breeding and selling.

Don't mean to sound negative here Ben but how do you know that you are going to be able to sell it at a figure that is worth your while? Would it not be better to do as you have done with the pigs for the first one or two and see how it goes?

[Jac]

PS. It's what we're doing. We're coming out of breeding but will still do beef, but buy in weaners if I can find them.

_

If you need a constant supply, as with a retail business, continuity is much easier to maintain if you control the whole process.

He isn't in that position yet. Far too many people jump in with both feet. I know there is nothing worse than someone pouring cold water on your ideas but test the water first. Start small, build up slowly Ben there is a lot more meat to shift on a cow than a pig or lamb.

[Broomcroft]

Re the control, breeding won't give you control; buying-in gives your more control and choice IMO.

Remember we're only talking a few animals a year so not worth breeding to be honest. If you were selling 50+ animals a year, then finding them could be a problem. But to find a few locally shouldn't be a problem, especially if you ask on this forum when you want some.

If all goes well and you still want to breed your own, then go out and get some cows later. Keeping stock for fat is easy, there's not a lot to do, feed, bed, grass keep, keeping for breeding is where nearly all the problems are.

Of course, if you just want to breed, which is what you may be saying, then that's another matter.

I would echo Rob, give short-legs a miss.

[Rob R]

Therein lies the value of your long term plan - if you're planning on keeping a handful of animals that is a hobby, not an income (unless you can find a way of turning a net profit of a grand on each one), not even a part of one if you take all costs into account. Bearing in mind that a cow can take 3 years from conception to sale of the beef, that's already more than halfway into your 5-year plan if you start tomorrow.

Starting with a handful of animals as they're easy to source locally, fully expecting to be able to scale that up won't help with long term supply unless you can predict how many steers will be available in 3 years time and how much in demand they will be. We all know that Dexter breeders are fluid - I've put my name down for forward steers in the past only to find the breeders herd in the classifieds months later. You also might end up having to buy bulls and steering them yourself (another cost). It's all very difficult to plan out in advance if you're relying on third parties who are small in number and far apart. Buying in steers may give you flexibility, to a degree, but not control over quantity nor consistency.

[Hillside Ben]

Well availability has been an issue with the pigs in the past. We are looking to bring in our own breeding stock on these too shortly. I have always said I wouldn't do this, as I couldn't see how the breeders are making money, but when we're having to turn away customers because we can not get piglets in at certain times of the year. You suddenly realise the benefit of more control over your stock, and the business generally. The more time I've spent growing our business the more I've realised that the more self reliant you can be the better. We have lost thousands in hay crops from contractors not turning up when they've said they will, from reseeding being done late and so fields out of action for a whole season.
I also have a massive paranoia about bringing in diseases or problems with bought in stock after a nasty experience at the start of the year. Surely buying in your own stock and building from that is less of a biosecurity risk than buying in steers every few months.
You can't control everything on a farm but the more you can control the less the things you can't control will be a problem in my mind.

[Jac]

Well availability has been an issue with the pigs in the past. We are looking to bring in our own breeding stock on these too shortly. I have always said I wouldn't do this, as I couldn't see how the breeders are making money, but when we're having to turn away customers because we can not get piglets in at certain times of the year. You suddenly realise the benefit of more control over your stock, and the business generally. The more time I've spent growing our business the more I've realised that the more self reliant you can be the better. We have lost thousands in hay crops from contractors not turning up when they've said they will, from reseeding being done late and so fields out of action for a whole season.
I also have a massive paranoia about bringing in diseases or problems with bought in stock after a nasty experience at the start of the year. Surely buying in your own stock and building from that is less of a biosecurity risk than buying in steers every few months.
You can't control everything on a farm but the more you can control the less the things you can't control will be a problem in my mind.

The less you have to rely on others the better but correct me if I'm wrong but you have no specific experience with the breed. I think the person to be asking is Clive. He does own quite a large acreage (not that having a large farm makes you superior in any way Rob ) and will give you sound advice he's been there, done it and got the teeshirt and come out of it! I could have expanded but have chosen not to (for very good financial reasons).

[Rob R]

Blimey Jac, has the wind changed direction? The other day you were telling me that the money was in high-health status, closed herds, then along comes a chap wanting to do just that & you're telling him to do the opposite...

[Jac]

Blimey Jac, has the wind changed direction? The other day you were telling me that the money was in high-health status, closed herds, then along comes a chap wanting to do just that & you're telling him to do the opposite...

No, the wind hasn't changed direction Rob. All I'm saying is test the water before you jump in head first. There are plenty of Dexters on the market that should be beefed at reasonable prices so do what you are advocating everyone does and buy some of them up because it is cheaper than breeding them in many cases. If you can get away with picking them up and taking them straight in then so much the better.

[Hillside Ben]

The less you have to rely on others the better but correct me if I'm wrong but you have no specific experience with the breed. I think the person to be asking is Clive. He does own quite a large acreage (not that having a large farm makes you superior in any way Rob ) and will give you sound advice he's been there, done it and got the teeshirt and come out of it! I could have expanded but have chosen not to (for very good financial reasons).

I had no specific experience with the sheep breed we keep either before we started our flock.

I'm doing a farm visit this week, and have spoken to lots of breeders at shows over the last couple of years. I'm in no doubt that the Dexters are right for us and our situation. I just need to make sure we get the best ones for our situation and that we can afford to buy.

It's great to get all these different views too. I appreciate everyone taking the time to post their thoughts. It's made me look at our plan again and see if we are going the right route for us.

[Jac]

I'm doing a farm visit this week, and have spoken to lots of breeders at shows over the last couple of years.

Most people will put on a rosy view when they see you as a potential customer. It may well be that the Dexter is the right animal for you - I wouldn't swap them for any other breed. Just don't fall in the same trap that many others have done - bred them first then worried about how they will sell the meat (or the live animals) afterwards or believe that everyone will beat a path to their door because they believe in what they are doing and therefore the public will too. Have you spoken to your potential customers including local abattoirs and butchers?

[Rob R]

Blimey Jac, has the wind changed direction? The other day you were telling me that the money was in high-health status, closed herds, then along comes a chap wanting to do just that & you're telling him to do the opposite...

No, the wind hasn't changed direction Rob. All I'm saying is test the water before you jump in head first. There are plenty of Dexters on the market that should be beefed at reasonable prices so do what you are advocating everyone does and buy some of them up because it is cheaper than breeding them in many cases. If you can get away with picking them up and taking them straight in then so much the better.

You're right, I do advocate that, if the supply is as strong as you claim it is, I disagree that it is though, or I'd do it and so would all the other people who say in passing that Dexters are so cheap that they could make money going round buying up stock to kill!

There are some bargains to be had out there, stock ready to kill with no added cost, but they're few and far between. The majority need travel to collect them, running on, feeding, many of them castrating, etc. so they end up being about the right price for what they are. Also consistency is important, numbers of head are not everything, and there's a lot of variability in the breed, which is good in terms of finding breeding stock to suit your individual needs, but less good to rely on from one year to the next for a retail business.

The value of the initial budget is what I am stressing is vital - it's no good getting a couple of steers in and seeing how it goes if you're not keeping an eye on the costs or the scale needed to achieve what you set out to i.e. start with a figure of how much you want/need as an overall income and work back from there. Decide how many Dexters it will take to achieve that at what cost - it may be that, on paper, it's completely unrealistic and not worth doing at all (or that you need to sell at a higher price than you initially thought or that you need a full time job to run alongside it and therefore the plans might need scaling back a bit). It's not uncommon to hear breeders talk of their Dexters achieving massive weights at next to zero-cost that would have me expanding rapidly on the profits only to discover that they've sold up shortly after because they haven't factored in the cost of growing grass or labour etc.

The trial of buying in a few steers is a good idea, in terms of verifying what you can actually achieve from an animal, but unless you also buy the breeding stock to supply the beef in 3 years time you're going to be starting from square one again at that point, as the cost of buying in steers is not the same as breeding them, as you have said, and may vary wildly from one year to the next. That could mean that you're reliant upon buying in steers for the first five years and then have to change your business plan/prices because either it costs you more to produce the numbers you need or your supplier has decided that it's not worth breeding his own and is going to start buying in himself.

Suppliers, too, will require a long term commitment from you if you're to have a long term relationship with them - they're not going to want to supply you with steers for the first five years only for you to give up buying when your own breeding stock (with a higher health status) comes on-line and leaving them without a market.

We all have different viewpoints from our different perspectives, but I'm just trying to emphasize the pitfalls that I've encountered doing what I think is similar to what Ben describes, starting out with next to nothing and building up from there.

[Broomcroft]

I come back to the numbers. If you want to do a lot, then it could be difficult to find fat stock / weaners. But as Ben is thinking of starting with 3-4 carcasses a year, that should be relatively easy find.

Going back to breeding, if you are going down that route Ben, then do be careful to fully understand what short-leg Dexters are (one that carries Chondrodysplasia) and how they breed. You may already know, I didn't and I had a few (expensive) surprises so avoided them after that.