Are you conceding the point on it being a false economy to pay less for cows now?
Of course, if they are of the right type but what message is that sending out to the world. Don't pay anything for a registered Dexter because they are not worth it? Don't pay anything for grass fed beef because you can pick it up out of the boot of someone's car for much less.
At the moment we have the builders in - local firm. Builder sees me busy in the butchery processing the beef. He says, 'it's lovely stuff this Dexter beef I had some fantastic steak from down the road'. 'If you've got some spare I'll buy some off you'. There wasn't any left other than the few steaks I had put aside for myself so I gave him a price list knowing that he wouldn't buy any because he had paid £6.50 a kilo for it. Aside, the meat was off one of the steers I had bred - me being helpful to new breeders and getting kicked in the teeth. That aside, customers were arriving to collect their beef, there he was hearing them say how fantastic it was last time and how they were really looking forward to eating whatever it was they had planned for dinner etc etc. but that still did not change his view because in his mind Dexter beef was £6.50 a kilo and I was overcharging at £11.
Sorry, I'm failing to see what I'm supposed to do about your little beef anecdote - you've sold out of beef anyway, my steaks are £19 per kg & they sell like hotcakes.
Well, perhaps I was wrong to suggest that people should be beefing their unwanted stock because then we will see Dexter beef advertised on the internet on a regular basis for a couple of quid a kilo.
Rob R wrote:Sorry, I'm failing to see what I'm supposed to do about your little beef anecdote - you've sold out of beef anyway
Somebody help me out here for pity's sake!
Let me re-phrase that. I'm not a big believer in worrying about things if I am not in a position to change them. If I am in a position to change them I do worry/try to work out how I might achieve that. What I'm asking is what do you physically want me to do about the situation?
I don't start discussions on the internet to argue the toss with people at the other end of the country for fun, I am genuinely interested in this subject to help improve the viability of my breed. I thought you were going to say something like the higher priced cows produce 20% more calves in their lifetime or the calves produce 20% more beef from the same inputs which means that they pay for themselves after 3 calves, perhaps, something tangible.
Let me re-phrase that. I'm not a big believer in worrying about things if I am not in a position to change them. If I am in a position to change them I do worry/try to work out how I might achieve that. What I'm asking is what do you physically want me to do about the situation?
Individually there is nothing you or any one else can do about the situation, collectively it is a different matter.
I thought you were going to say something like the higher priced cows produce 20% more calves in their lifetime or the calves produce 20% more beef from the same inputs which means that they pay for themselves after 3 calves, perhaps, something tangible.Rob
No I didn't, because I would have thought it was obvious.
I see I'm not going to get a straight answer here. If it were that obvious everyone would be doing it, not even you, as the OP, has put it down in clear terms, as requested. I just made those figures up.
A collective is made up of individuals, can you be more specific about what we all should be doing?
TBH it sounds like you're proposing a pyramid scheme where everyone pays more for the benefit of the person above them. They don't tend to work longterm.
Please ask Mark why he has bought into the linear scoring scheme if is not contributing to the viability of the breed. Ask Duncan why he feels that a health scheme is worthwhile if there are no obvious benefits. Surely you can see that better quality healthy stock does carry benefits or is it just that you are advocating that people should pay less than they cost to produce?
Neither Mark nor Duncan are making your case that a breeding female at less than £1000 is a waste of money. It's a little unfair for you expect them to. We've talked about LA & health schemes in the past & the conclusions were that neither adds £250 to the costs. Cost of production is a matter for the vendor to address, not the buyer, who is free to go elsewhere.
I thought you would have used this thread as an opportunity to extol the virtues of your stock & why they are worth spending a grand on.
I looked into Cost Benefit Analysis of traditional herding in Africa and India for the thesis, to get a handle on the profitability of medieval management systems. In every case, the scrawny stock kept on next to nothing provide a better financial return than systems providing even a minimum of supplementary feed. I waded through reams of C18th & C19th "improvers" deriding such cattle and such management but their arguments only hold for an industrialised urban market. In the traditional type of gift exchange system, where small holders such as myself operate, then the value of the meat is in proportion to the service received.
My view of cattle value is along the lines of the 10 year old cow, Cassie, I bought not warranted in calf and with a blind quarter for £150. She produced four live calves. Her daughter Clarissa was put down last year aged 19 after a long & productive life. The cow I bred that resold for 2000gns was a grand daughter of Cassie. To me, that was £150 well spent.
At the time I bought Cassie I was also in contact with Jayne Paynter, who offered me a Knotting cow of comparable vintage for £1000. I declined. I cannot see how the Knotting cow could possibly have provided the return that Cassie did.
I have a gorgeous, well-handled 7 year old red cow that was my hope for showing and home dairying. Sadly she has been plagued with mastitis in recent years and reared last year's calf on one quarter. As a dry cow, she now has mastitis in the last quarter so her value will be precisely what she makes as a cull cow at the mart, whatever the value I personally put on her.
Rob R wrote:Neither Mark nor Duncan are making your case that a breeding female at less than £1000 is a waste of money. It's a little unfair for you expect them to. We've talked about LA & health schemes in the past & the conclusions were that neither adds £250 to the costs. Cost of production is a matter for the vendor to address, not the buyer, who is free to go elsewhere.
I thought you would have used this thread as an opportunity to extol the virtues of your stock & why they are worth spending a grand on.
Sorry, you have lost me where does the £250 come in? I agree that the cost of production is a matter for the vendor to address but neither you nor I would sell an animal for less than the retail value of the meat less the processing costs. As regards to the value of potential breeding stock then one has to price them according to the cost of production and the value you place upon them remaining in your herd.
I find Louisa's post most interesting. I wonder about the eating quality of the meat produced from such animals? Did you ever try any?
My Knotting cow now 12 years old did not cost me £1,000 she has to date given me five heifers plus the one bull calf that came with her. I haven't had any mastitis issues with her. Her female offspring (those that have calved) all have (in particular) such lovely udders (40% in the linear scoring mark) and long straight backs and these traits appear to be 'well fixed' as I am now seeing these qualities come though in all her grandchildren too early to tell as yet about udder development but good teat placement and good length of back. I paid the price the vendor asked for her but had she been (this arbitrary) £1,000, then to me it would still have been money well spent for the breeding years it has saved me. For the benefit of very new breeders to the site who are wondering why it has saved me breeding years .... udder quality is strongly inherited through the female line and takes such a long time as you have to wait for the offspring to calve to see how successful or not you have been. It has been sadly neglected with this move to beef and some faults seem so difficult to breed out.
Last edited by Jac on Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:57 pm, edited 6 times in total.
£250 each between LA & the health scheme would make my £500 cow cost your £1000 figure (you asked whether I was advocating paying less than the cost of production). The point being that the cost of production of a quality, healthy cow is not necessarily £1000.
You paid what the vendor asked, as do I, and everyone is happy.
The point being that the cost of production of a quality, healthy cow is not necessarily £1000.
So all the folk who bought animals at the Judy Knight's sale were foolish? All you seem to want to account for is the grass to feed it. Never mind someone's lifetime of careful breeding and experience. Your definition of quality and mine are not the same.
The point being that the cost of production of a quality, healthy cow is not necessarily £1000.
So all the folk who bought animals at the Judy Knight's sale were foolish? All you seem to want to account for is the grass to feed it. Never mind someone's lifetime of careful breeding and experience. Your definition of quality and mine are not the same.
No, those are your words, not mine. I'm a big fan of the auction system as a trully democratic way of determining market value as you can also, as a non-buyer, go along and help push up the price without spending a penny, which I enjoy doing as it makes me feel like I am doing something positive to help the vendor achieve the full potential of their animal's value.
I think of it as "qualities" not 'quality', as different scenarios require different qualities. For instance, if someone had spent a lifetime developing an animal that did well on fertilised high sugar ryegrasses and concentrates it is unlikely to fulfil it's potential on my ings grazing, it's not a personal snub to the person selling it.
Equally, if I have a budget of £1000 and I don't overspend then that is not a snub to the vendor either, it is just me making a very simple economic decision not to spend more money than I have available.
122.635 kilos of meat £1393.10 retail meat value off short bull 26 months
Sex Male
Colour Black
Type Non-Short
Date of birth 18/03/2012
General Comments Well shaped bull full of potential halter trained could do with some extra practise but has been shown in the Small Holders show in builth wells 2014.
Price £650
Not far away, if I had the energy I would ask him to take it in for me................. I give up I really do. I am wasting my breath.
