A subject for another thread

[Mark Bowles]

Interesting earlier reply, the "show underworld". There is a lot of stock that obviously does not make it onto this website, and sells for a lot more money than some of the prices on here. Show people have their ears to the ground and are always looking to improve their stock... and pay well for the right animals.
Say whatever you want but in the end quality counts, well it should do. You only need to look back at the huge demand and interest at the Knightsway sale back in 2008 i think it was, people dug deep to take stock home...and thats a fact!
Surly the beef market puts a minimum price on any animal making £700/£1000 easily attainable.

[Jac]

bulls are definitely far greater in supply than demand. What's more steers fetch higher prices than bulls do, so I really can't fathom anyone leaving them entire for sale.

Oh Rob, Rob. It depends who is selling them. When I have bulls being booked before they are even born what does that tell you? and before you ask me why did I kill that short let me tell you that I had someone want to buy that one too, but if you take the time and effort to build up a beef customer base you have to service them or they will go elsewhere.

Why do steers fetch higher prices? It is a mind set. People start on the road that they going to eat it themselves they cannot keep it entire as they don't have the facilities. With females they cannot bring themselves to kill them hence good home syndrome.

Bulls grow faster have better muscle to fat ratio with careful feeding or genetics (not sure which) have nice marbling but not external fat. They need careful handling esp. at slaughter. I have killed before and have received extremely good feedback from my customers. So for me not castrating males unless there are obvious reason to do so is something I will continue to do - the choice is in my hands.

[Rob R]

bulls are definitely far greater in supply than demand. What's more steers fetch higher prices than bulls do, so I really can't fathom anyone leaving them entire for sale.

Oh Rob, Rob. It depends who is selling them. When I have bulls being booked before they are even born what does that tell you? and before you ask me why did I kill that short let me tell you that I had someone want to buy that one too, but if you take the time and effort to build up a beef customer base you have to service them or they will go elsewhere.

Why do steers fetch higher prices? It is a mind set. People start on the road that they going to eat it themselves they cannot keep it entire as they don't have the facilities. With females they cannot bring themselves to kill them hence good home syndrome.

Bulls grow faster have better muscle to fat ratio with careful feeding or genetics (not sure which) have nice marbling but not external fat. They need careful handling esp. at slaughter. I have killed before and have received extremely good feedback from my customers. So for me not castrating males unless there are obvious faults is something I will continue to do - the choice is in my hands.

Well obviously anyone selling a bull for breeding is not going to castrate it! But you know as well as I do that there are a lot of bulls out there that are not in demand as breeding animals. That tells me that you have the facilities to keep animals separate, which of course means you have to get more money for the ones you sell, either as beef or bulls.

Steers fetch higher prices because they're more practical to keep in a small herd where they may need the company of females. In larger herds it means you can graze animals together with heifers or graze as a larger group. Granted that's problem not as much of a problem if you don't have field cows, but as a grazing animal the Dexter it is far more likely than with other breeds which keep bulls entire for the indoor market which is much bigger for them.

[Rob R]

Interesting earlier reply, the "show underworld". There is a lot of stock that obviously does not make it onto this website, and sells for a lot more money than some of the prices on here. Show people have their ears to the ground and are always looking to improve their stock... and pay well for the right animals.
Say whatever you want but in the end quality counts, well it should do. You only need to look back at the huge demand and interest at the Knightsway sale back in 2008 i think it was, people dug deep to take stock home...and thats a fact!
Surly the beef market puts a minimum price on any animal making £700/£1000 easily attainable.

You're quite right Mark, quality does count, but the thing is that different 'qualities' have different levels of demand for different purposes and different markets. You put a lot of effort into marketing and presentation, as well as breeding, which makes a huge difference, but it all depends upon there being the right level of demand for your product.

Resale value is also something to consider, and how well they retain their value has a big bearing upon whether it is a false economy to pay less, or not. Luxury car companies don't market their products to sell them, they market to ensure the prestige for the benefit of people who have already bought them.

[Jac]

Steers fetch higher prices because they're more practical to keep in a small herd where they may need the company of females.

Steers fetch higher prices because there are less of them on the market because the owners know what they are worth and are not so bothered morally about eating them so stick it out to get the asking price.

[Rob R]

Steers fetch higher prices because they're more practical to keep in a small herd where they may need the company of females.

Steers fetch higher prices because there are less of them on the market because the owners know what they are worth and are not so bothered morally about eating them so stick it out to get the asking price.

If that helps you sleep at night, who am I to disagree.

[Jac]

If that helps you sleep at night, who am I to disagree.

It does.

Resale value is also something to consider, and how well they retain their value has a big bearing upon whether it is a false economy to pay less, or not

The fate of the Dexter is entirely in the hands of the people that keep/breed them. Do you see breeders of Lims, Belgian Blues etc offering their stock for sale at less than the value of the carcase because they want it to go to a 'good home' - not very likely. Or how about buying commercial calf at a few days old for £400 feeding it powdered milk etc rearing it up to killing or breeding age and then selling it for the same price he paid for it - I think not.

[Rob R]

Resale value is also something to consider, and how well they retain their value has a big bearing upon whether it is a false economy to pay less, or not

The fate of the Dexter is entirely in the hands of the people that keep/breed them. Do you see breeders of Lims, Belgian Blues etc offering their stock for sale at less than the value of the carcase because they want it to go to a 'good home' - not very likely. Or how about buying commercial calf at a few days old for £400 feeding it powdered milk etc rearing it up to killing or breeding age and then selling it for the same price he paid for it - I think not.

Rearers of commercial stock tend to take the market price available to them. There's a level of certainty because the spec of those breeds is closer to what the bulk of the market wants, but they are still gambling on supply and demand as much as the Dexter breeder. Sometimes they do loose money.

I'm not attempting to justify why someone might sell an animal for less than carcass value, but equally, high initial purchase prices help instill that the animals are 'worth' more as breeding animals than they are as meat and therefore many people prefer to see them going to a breeding home rather than the butcher. It's like any pyramid scheme unless the breeder is willing to guarantee to buy back the animal the initial purchase price is, potentially, lost. If, as a breeder, you don't want your stock back then the price is over inflated in the first place, as you'd be expecting the purchaser, a person probably without your wealth of knowledge & experience, to do what you aren't prepared to.

[Jac]

Sometimes they do loose money.

I agree with you that commercials are subject to market forces. People do sometimes lose money but there is a whole industry behind them that ensures a safety net or they would 'all' be in the poop.

I agree that prices should not be unnecessarily inflated but not sure of the practicalities of purchasing stock back again esp. if it goes into TB areas or if you are in health scheme. I can only speak for myself but I only sell stuff that I would be willing to keep myself and the price that I ask is the cost of getting it to that stage. I keep my animals for my pleasure but the other half insists that I at least break even as I am running it as a business. You might say that my costs are more than yourself as I buy in all winter fodder and also have to factor in the time I spend in making sure all my stock are very well handled and trained appropriately and that is something that someone with a big unit can't do. Fine if as I said, you are going to keep large numbers for meat but it is 'horses for courses' - "you pays your money and takes your choice". Unfortunately with the Dexter, newcomers sometimes get a false impression of prices because there are sales taking place privately breeder to breeder that they never get to know about. I also believe it takes at least seven years before newcomers to the breed appreciate the difference that is, if they stick it out that long.

[Rob R]

Regarding practicalities of buying stock back - that is not an excuse I will let anyone get away with. Buying an animal back doesn't mean that it has to come back onto your holding, you may not want it back for disease or distance reasons but the vendor is (often) more capable of sending it to slaughter than the purchaser and taking the meat value, rather than it being sold on at below meat value as a breeding animal with your name attached to it. If you have good waiting lists for breeding stock it could, potentially, be brokered by the breeder to go straight to new purchaser. The vendor could get the price they were asking for and the breeder could take the difference as a fee, there are plenty of options.

I maintain, as I always have, that if any breeder thinks that prices on classified ads are too low (based on the meat value) then they have the option to buy the stock and sell it to the abattoir at a profit. Most breeders don't do this so that suggests that there isn't actually a profit in them, based on the meat value, and that the prices are at the correct, or too high, a level in most cases.

I do have a growing herd, but it's not not big by farming or Dexter standards, btw, only about 40 cows at present. I'd have more if I could, as we have the land available, but not having the capital nor time to expand in a big way means I have to be careful how much I spend on breeding stock (this year we had to replace the tractor, for example). I've looked at the possibility of boosting my income by buying up 'cheap' cows and selling them on but I can't see a profit in it and the time involved would take away from other areas of the farm. I'd love to be proven wrong, though, if someone is willing to do it.

[Jac]

You are not selling something then, you are hiring it out. I don't even want to think about the implications of acting a broker. What happens if they have half starved the thing? Or kept if for 20 years - it is just not practical.

[Rob R]

No, you sell it the first time, and resell it the second. If you've stayed in touch with the novice keeper and given them the full backup service it's unlikely to have had chance to deteriorate so badly. If it has then it's not worth the money or breeding from any longer and it can go straight to kill.

[Jac]

Yes, you can keep in touch, I offer a full after sales service as far as help and advice goes but after an animal leaves my premises I have absolutely no control over its welfare. The only way you can assist the newcomer is to select a bull to use (if it is not already in calf) and offer to buy the offspring it produces either for meat or pass them a sales lead. I have done this myself in the past. But you cannot prevent someone from selling your animal at a low price if (for whatever reason) you can't have it back on your premises and you offer to slaughter it and the person is really opposed to that and choses to find it a 'good home' . What happens when the 'good home' does not join the society and transfers it into their ownership or ceases to become a member, hire a detective?

My burger mix is now thoroughly chilled so I am off to press and pack some.

[Rob R]

Why are you picking holes in what I've said by using the few cases where you have no control? If the opportunity has gone there isn't anything you can do about it, but equally you're not aware of it so it isn't going to bother you. There aren't that many places where Dexters are advertised, many of them on preloved or farmingads.co.uk, if not here, or at the auctions, so just keeping an eye out should suffice for 90% of animals.

If low prices don't bother you that much then it's not a problem, because quality shines through, as Mark said.

[Jac]

.... merely trying to point out the impracticability of what you are suggesting.

Anyone who has a genuine concern for the breed should be concerned about low prices even if one is not suffering directly.