York Rare Breeds Show & Sale - 4/5th October 2013

[Boofarm]

Jac

I really want to argue with you on this one, but I sense you might be right!!!!! From point of view though if I could find other breeders within say 50 miles of us (we are in south yorks) it is something I would consider, but im not sure how much support would be around?

Tom

Well if someone can put a co-operative together I for one would be happy to put cattle into it, if we need to meet a standard then so be it.

As far as I can make out at the moment the only way to make these cattle pay for thier keep is to market the beef in small quantities - that for us is really not an option at the moment so some kind of definite market outlet would be welcome

[Boofarm]

Dexters are the smallest breed of British cattle. A cow should weigh about 350kg. How do you get a carcase of 25okg from a 350kg liveweight animal - answer is you can't. The only way to keep dexters true to their qualities is to maintain the small size. The only way to maintain the economics of it all is to cash in on the superior quality of the beef and charge a considerable premium. My steers are currently killing at about 125kg deadweight. I can split the carcase into 8 boxes of even mix of cuts, price £100. Cost of killing, butchering and transport about £300. This was the basis of my decision not to sell heifers at Carlise under £800-£300 ie £500. I sold 3 at £500 and the last at £490. If the £490 had been for the first in the ring it would have been unsold.

125Kg would seem to be a little on the small side although I bow to your experience, we have sent two steers in to date - 190 and 220Kg deadweight.

We did killl a young heifer who came in at 90Kg but she was a BVD carrier

[Rob R]

125Kg would seem to be a little on the small side although I bow to your experience, we have sent two steers in to date - 190 and 220Kg deadweight.

I think what Duncan is referring to is that those animals can't have conformed to the breed standard for Dexters (42 - 48 inches at the rump) when alive. They may have come from registered parents, but at what point do you stop calling it a Dexter and admit that you've developed a new breed? There are already large cattle breeds out there so there isn't really a lot of point breeding the Dexter bigger. I can see both sides to the arguments, and while I don't think we should breed huge cattle, I don't think we should breed the tiny ones either. Breeds, by definition, need consistency, and somewhere in the middle is perhaps best.

[Kelvin and Lottie James]

Surely the Dexter was always known as the little black cow. If you want bigger cattle then go for bigger breeds. Why have people got Dexters if they want them bigger? It doesn't make sense to me.
Lottie James
Sedgefen Dexters.

[Rob R]

Jac

I really want to argue with you on this one, but I sense you might be right!!!!! From point of view though if I could find other breeders within say 50 miles of us (we are in south yorks) it is something I would consider, but im not sure how much support would be around?

Tom

Well if someone can put a co-operative together I for one would be happy to put cattle into it, if we need to meet a standard then so be it.

As far as I can make out at the moment the only way to make these cattle pay for thier keep is to market the beef in small quantities - that for us is really not an option at the moment so some kind of definite market outlet would be welcome

That's the crux of the problem with any cooperative - there are plenty of people out there willing to put the odd steer in but very few want to take on the role of organising it. Coops cost money to administer and organise, if it's done on a voluntary basis by one or more of the members then that keeps costs down but it's not unreasonable that those members should recoup their costs, along with some payment for their work. Essentially they'd be running a company, and there are a good few of those around the country marketing Dexter beef, it's just that they don't operate nationwide, for various reasons.

One of those reasons is the distance that would need to be travelled, as you'd need a truck to bring a load down to a central processing and distribution point - fine if you're talking about 30 animals at a time, but for most people, who'd like to benefit from such a coop, 3 is a big 'batch'. All this would add to the cost and you could end up with even less back than you're getting at the moment.

A coop needs cooperation, from all members putting amounts in equal to what they get out of it. Invariably members feel that the people taking on the organisation are taking too much, and they pull out. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that you have to approach it with a realistic expectation of what can be done.

I think [to avoid the cat-herding problem] coops, of this nature, work better where they are formed between a few relatively local breeders working on commercial terms - ie one owns the distribution facilities and just buys the cattle deadweight or before. The breeders can put whatever they feel into promoting Dexter beef and be rewarded by greater sales, but if it all turns sour they don't have assets dependantly tied up in the venture.

[Boofarm]

125Kg would seem to be a little on the small side although I bow to your experience, we have sent two steers in to date - 190 and 220Kg deadweight.

I think what Duncan is referring to is that those animals can't have conformed to the breed standard for Dexters (42 - 48 inches at the rump) when alive. They may have come from registered parents, but at what point do you stop calling it a Dexter and admit that you've developed a new breed? There are already large cattle breeds out there so there isn't really a lot of point breeding the Dexter bigger. I can see both sides to the arguments, and while I don't think we should breed huge cattle, I don't think we should breed the tiny ones either. Breeds, by definition, need consistency, and somewhere in the middle is perhaps best.

Both animals referred to above were within the breed standard although now too late to prove, nor were either overfat, co-incdentally both had burnside in their immediate pedigee (grandsire) or so I believe.

I do agree that animals should conform to breed standard

[Rob R]

Not wishing to speculate further, I'll leave that for Duncan to reply to.

[Broomcroft]

Just to clarify, my 250kg DW cow was a freak and that's why I culled her, nothing more than that. She was only 5. If I'd been crossing at the time, I'd have kept her.

I'm pretty certain all my cows are within height standard, and they are definitely 350kg max (even in top condition) which I know from the weights I get when culled.

You don't need bigger cows to produce good beef carcasses. Even out of a ped Dexter bull, on good grazing I would average 190-220kgs DW (steers at 27-30 months), with the occasional one outside that range. But if grazing is poor or old leys, most likely they won't grow like that and achieve those weights. We've got old leys and new ones, mainly new. Put animals on our old leys, and they just go nowhere, the difference is chalk and cheese. I leant a bull to a breeder once with old leys, he must have lost 100kgs in a few weeks. He looked awful when he came back, although some would say fitter! Never again.

[Jac]

Put animals on our old leys, and they just go nowhere, the difference is chalk and cheese.

Although the Dexter is reputed to produce fine beef and milk off grass alone, in order to achieve a worthwhile carcass you need good grass which we do not have. With good quality haylage they thrive in the winter here and maintain or gain a little in the summer on our old pastures in order to attain those sort of weights (non-short).

[Broomcroft]

Jac, Could you stitch/harrow in some new Aber or whatever grass seed? I grazed one of our old leys down as tight as possible one year, then roughed it up with a harrow a few times over, broadcast seed, harrowed again and rolled two or three times.

Phew!!!

Anyhow, nothing much happened, but the following year it did start to come through.

Just a thought.

[Jac]

Currently dealing with a soft rush infestation which is the kiss of death to new seed. One more treatment this spring and I think we will have it licked. Would like to lime if I can this time round before putting some seed down.

[Broomcroft]

We limed our fields a couple of years ago with lime+potash (after testing the soil), and even though PH was just about OK theoretically, the fields yielded much more afterwards. Really worth while for us.

[Rob R]

Surely what constitutes a worthwhile carcass depends as much on what it's cost you as how much it gives back. This is what I referred to earlier about the commercial breeders - larger animals open up new markets, but they don't always secure higher margins.

[Jac]

Surely what constitutes a worthwhile carcass depends as much on what it's cost you as how much it gives back. This is what I referred to earlier about the commercial breeders - larger animals open up new markets, but they don't always secure higher margins.

But there has to be a point where it is not economical to buy them for killing due to the high processing costs else why would the abattoirs be paying cull prices for prime stock if they are under a certain weight?

[Rob R]

Surely what constitutes a worthwhile carcass depends as much on what it's cost you as how much it gives back. This is what I referred to earlier about the commercial breeders - larger animals open up new markets, but they don't always secure higher margins.

But there has to be a point where it is not economical to buy them for killing due to the high processing costs else why would the abattoirs be paying cull prices for prime stock if they are under a certain weight?

True enough, but you have to make sure, beforehand, that what you spend more than covers the extra kgs you get back, otherwise you've laid out a load of money and worked harder for nothing.

26 registered & non-registered cows at York made £5796, their cull value at £350/head is £9100 leaving a £3304 margin, if your good leys cost you nothing that's a very good margin, but I suspect that cull value would have been a lot closer to the prices achieved this weekend, if you were to sit down and work out all the costs.