York Rare Breeds Show & Sale - 4/5th October 2013

[Rob R]

Sometimes it pays you more to sell some breeding stock for less than might be 'profitable' because the loss incurred if you were to keep them would be greater for all the herd. Sending breeding cows to cull that are otherwise sound takes some foresight and organising, keeping them away from the bull at least 3 months before the calves are weaned. Circumstances can change, loss of land and/or buildings, etc, in the meantime.

Few smallholders are farm assured, you only need it if you don't know your customer, and if you're doing it just to cover the cost of culls it might not be worth it? Some people are luckier than others with their location too - you might get a better price at various markets or abattoirs, but add in fuel and time and that might not be worth it, either, especially if you don't like dragging stock half way across the country to kill.

You hear some very good prices and weights quoted for commercial cattle in various places around the country, but you also hear how even bigger breeds aren't making any money and numbers are dropping, which makes me wonder, what are people spending money on to not be making good money out of cattle farming? We have neighbours with pedigree Limmi's that scoff at our little cattle and the low prices they make but we've built the herd up from absolutely nothing, whereas they've had to bring outside money in to buy their cattle due to the high capital cost/low returns of more desirable breeds.

Maybe that is where the blame should lie for low prices - people spending a lot of money on fert & feed, etc. to be more 'efficient' and all it's done is push up the beef supply and hence reduced the returns and made some merchants very rich in the process, leaving the farmer with ever diminishing returns.

[TomGDexters]

Rob I agree with you effiecency is key to profits, but I think we run a fairly tight ship, we are running a large smallholding for want of a better description (approx 50 acres) some owned and some rented on various agreements which we are continually looking to expand, we need the higher prices to continue invest into cattle, land and building work, I find it a difficult pill to swallow anyone promoting low prices!!!!!

Tom

[Rob R]

Rob I agree with you effiecency is key to profits, but I think we run a fairly tight ship, we are running a large smallholding for want of a better description (approx 50 acres) some owned and some rented on various agreements which we are continually looking to expand, we need the higher prices to continue invest into cattle, land and building work, I find it a difficult pill to swallow anyone promoting low prices!!!!!

Tom

I'm not suggesting that low prices are necessarily a good thing, just that high prices don't always mean more income. I've been banging on for weeks about the only solution to low prices at auction is for established breeders to turn up at the auctions and bid, and I thought I might have shot myself in the foot for this sale, but quite the opposite. Vendors aside, if established breeders don't attend and bid then they're contributing to low prices remaining low.

[Broomcroft]

I suppose the first thing to do is find out what local abattoirs there are near you, if any, and whether they require Farm Assurance. I feel certain some do not. It may be that a lot of people drive further to go to a market than they would going to the abattoir. Yes you've got to plan ahead but it's hardy rocket-science. Don't put back to bull, wean, cull.

I had a fairly big Dexter cow I took 2 years ago and got £550 as a cull. She wasn't the biggest I had, but on the big side. The really small ones have no value really in that respect, but they'll still probably get £150 or more.

Does anyone use a non-FA abattoir for culls? What sort of prices did you get? Maybe people could contribute and make up a list and keep it online?

[Broomcroft]

I'm not suggesting that low prices are necessarily a good thing, just that high prices don't always mean more income. I've been banging on for weeks about the only solution to low prices at auction is for established breeders to turn up at the auctions and bid, and I thought I might have shot myself in the foot for this sale, but quite the opposite. Vendors aside, if established breeders don't attend and bid then they're contributing to low prices remaining low.

I don't think established breeders are interested (in sufficient numbers) Rob, otherwise they'd be there. The markets either too far away, or they have enough cattle, are breeding their own, and many are closed herds I'd imagine.

Whatever your potential outlets are, it's clear that there are more cattle than buyers, so there is only one answer, cull. If you don't, someone will because they aren't wanted at the moment. That's what some of the buyers at market must be doing.

[Rob R]

I suppose the first thing to do is find out what local abattoirs there are near you, if any, and whether they require Farm Assurance. I feel certain some do not. It may be that a lot of people drive further to go to a market than they would going to the abattoir. Yes you've got to plan ahead but it's hardy rocket-science. Don't put back to bull, wean, cull.

I know it's not, but if you're not running your cattle as a business it's less of a priority, so that's why they end up in numbers at rare breeds auctions.

I had a fairly big Dexter cow I took 2 years ago and got £550 as a cull. She wasn't the biggest I had, but on the big side. The really small ones have no value really in that respect, but they'll still probably get £150 or more.

Does anyone use a non-FA abattoir for culls? What sort of prices did you get? Maybe people could contribute and make up a list and keep it online?

How big's fairly big & what's that per kg? That's the only figure we can use to compare, but yes, I was thinking along similar lines myself - it'd be very useful & makes sense to work smarter, as Dexter breeders, not harder.

[Rob R]

I'm not suggesting that low prices are necessarily a good thing, just that high prices don't always mean more income. I've been banging on for weeks about the only solution to low prices at auction is for established breeders to turn up at the auctions and bid, and I thought I might have shot myself in the foot for this sale, but quite the opposite. Vendors aside, if established breeders don't attend and bid then they're contributing to low prices remaining low.

I don't think established breeders are interested (in sufficient numbers) Rob, otherwise they'd be there. The markets either too far away, or they have enough cattle, are breeding their own, and many are closed herds I'd imagine.

Whatever your potential outlets are, it's clear that there are more cattle than buyers, so there is only one answer, cull. If you don't, someone will because they aren't wanted at the moment. That's what some of the buyers at market must be doing.

I don't think so either, and that's exactly it, if you aren't interested, how do you expect others to be? Unless there is no market whatsoever for the stock you don't have to buy them to push the prices up, that's the beauty of the auction. Last Spring sale I pushed the prices up a few thousand on a lot of stock at York, but only bought two.

It's a cycle, looking at prices for York over the years the average for cows with calves was higher this year (277) than in 2011 (270), and it was even higher in 2012 (338 (based on 5 of the 6, that I could find prices for)) . People will stop selling cows/cull them and prices will rise again. Lots of new people will envisage a quick buck and we'll be back here again.

[Broomcroft]

She was 250kg DW. I was surprised as she didn't look that big. I sent 6 in that day and they averaged 200kgs.

Most graded O+5L, with one at R5H. Two were shorties, weighing in at 180kg DW each.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

Dexters are the smallest breed of British cattle. A cow should weigh about 350kg. How do you get a carcase of 25okg from a 350kg liveweight animal - answer is you can't. The only way to keep dexters true to their qualities is to maintain the small size. The only way to maintain the economics of it all is to cash in on the superior quality of the beef and charge a considerable premium. My steers are currently killing at about 125kg deadweight. I can split the carcase into 8 boxes of even mix of cuts, price £100. Cost of killing, butchering and transport about £300. This was the basis of my decision not to sell heifers at Carlise under £800-£300 ie £500. I sold 3 at £500 and the last at £490. If the £490 had been for the first in the ring it would have been unsold.

Please do not spoil Dexter beef by breeding Dexters bigger and bigger.

Anyone going to the DCS AGM is invited to view the herd on the way north, take the M8 from Glasgow to Wemyss Bay, half hour ferry at say 12noon on Friday, see the herd, back to mainland by 3.30, up to Perth in plenty of time for the festivities.

Duncan

[ann]

if established breeders don't attend and bid then they're contributing to low prices remaining low.

As a long time breeder and owner of dexters, apart from when I started my herd, I have not brought any females in for over 20 yrs and I'm sure a lot of establish breeders have a similar policy.
If i need any new blood lines I look to AI for them. I was very sorry to see so many cattle being sold at such low prices but very few cattle had any history with them, so its buyer beware if you run a closed herd. I can not understand why people leave male's intact unless they come from very exceptionable parents and its even dafter when they are unregistered. Put a rubber ring on them when they are born. end of problem.
I would always put a reserve on anything for sale, if the auctioneer knows you do not intend to sell for peanuts they will try a bit harder as no sale no commission for them. There is no way anyone can balance the books at some of the low prices being pd.

Unfortunately several cows and calves where from a disposal sale and I felt very sorry for the owner .
However if I had to sell up I know I would be trying to promote my cattle well in advance of the sale and also put up more info about them. No one stated what the TB status of their animals was.

I just hope that most cattle found good homes and did not go straight to slaughter after their calves where weaned.
I noticed that several cows which where originally listed in the catalogue as having calves at foot, suddenly appeared with out them. Did the owner take the calves home.?

Lets hope we have a better winter and the spring sale is better. I personally felt that buyers in all parts of the sale where well down, this is a show which usually very busy, this was not true of saturday.

Do let us know Tom how you get on with the shorthorn bull, he was very nice, I was sorely tempted with the younger one, but I thought one of my friends was interested in him so sat on my hands.

[ann]

Please do not spoil Dexter beef by breeding Dexters bigger and bigger.
,

Many years ago I brought two welsh foals out of wales and brought them home to Yorkshire, to an area renowned for good grazing and surprise surprised they turned out much bigger than we expected them to. My cattle are always going to do better than ones which run up on the moors or graze on poor grazing, Now please don't take my comments the wrong way, I am not suggesting that your cattle are small because they do not get enough to eat, but I regularly get steers to finish at around the 180 - 200 kilos but i do run them up to 29mths. I certainly don't think my cattle have got bigger than my original ones, which came from well established herds.

Anyone going to the DCS AGM is invited to view the herd on the way north

I would have loved to have come and looked at your cattle unfortunately I am traveling up on friday by train and hiring a car so sadly its a no no for me

[Broomcroft]

Dexters are the smallest breed of British cattle. A cow should weigh about 350kg. How do you get a carcase of 25okg from a 350kg liveweight animal - answer is you can't. The only way to keep dexters true to their qualities is to maintain the small size.

One of the answers is get rid of shorties Duncan because you can't see what you are getting. She was the daughter of a small short Dexter bull and a shortie cow. Neither of them, as it turns out, were actually genetically small at all, they were both big animals in disguise. But I, like a lot of people, bought both when I didn't know I was doing and experienced breeders were telling me that bulldog calves and shorties were to do with breeding lines, not actually a faulty gene !!!!!

The size, as you know, tells you nothing.

I've also had a steer out of a moderate sized cow that reached 305kg DW. A complete throw back to something. Pedigree as well as were all the animals I have referred to.

[Rob R]

if established breeders don't attend and bid then they're contributing to low prices remaining low.

As a long time breeder and owner of dexters, apart from when I started my herd, I have not brought any females in for over 20 yrs and I'm sure a lot of establish breeders have a similar policy.

I'm sure you're right, also a lot of breeders sell heifers, which is clearly unsustainable if you're to rely entirely upon a constant supply of new breeders coming in to compete for them. I've only ever sold two heifers, the good ones stay, and the bad ones go. It doesn't matter if a new buyer turns up with very deep pockets, if there are no underbidders the stock won't reach any reserve.

[TomGDexters]

Hi Ann

Its was the younger one that I bought, lot number 2, I went to view him on farm a week earlier and decided I wasn't going home without him!!!( I was a liitle upset, he won 1st in the show on Friday, but the sellers took the rosette, certificates and halter with them, I would hav equite liked them) He is going on manoeuvres at Xmas time with half of my biggest cows, whilst my Dexter bull has been running with the other half since July , I am trying a block calving approach rather than at random like we have done before!! I am doing it basically to see which approach suits our system best.

I may be interest in hiring my Dexter bull out from say Xmas to June 2014, but I would like to visit the farm first before I lent him, based on past experience, 4 year TB only too.

Its a real shame and also probably a little far fetched that some sort of supply chain couldn't be developed through say this website to market finished, cattle. On the culling front I am fairly sure our local slaughter house take non FA cattle, the last ones I sent to a spot in Todmorrden, Nr Halifax

Tom

[Broomcroft]

On the culling front I am fairly sure our local slaughter house take non FA cattle, the last ones I sent to a spot in Todmorrden, Nr Halifax

Tom, Can you remember her deadweight and what sort of price you got?