In these difficult transitional times post subsidies it is vital to have stong and effective public markets for our stock.Without question York been a major plank in providing this.
It is well placed,well organised,well supported with entries and well attended by the public and buyers alike.They have allowed a free Northern Dexter stand and in my experience always worked closely with the Group to develop the sale to its current successful position.
It is therefore with some dismay that I have heard that our Council are considering turning their back on York and attempting to establish some other northern market as the "official" DCS event.
My thoughts are:
1 If it aint broke dont fix it
2 If you have have something strong,build on it.
I trust that common sense will prevail on this issue but did not want to miss this opportunity to raise it so that it can be properly discussed and thought through before our old friend fait accompli comes into play.
What do other members with knowledge of York think?Is it better to work with and develop the strengths of York or try to set up some rival event???
York Market Rare Breed Sale
Hi Rod
I think York is so well established in the Dexter Sales calender that it can stand a bit of competion, I very rarely have anything to sell through the sales rings these days but have always found York a good place to use if I do, its also a must as a meeting place for us Northern dexter owners so I think it will survive the odd snipe at it.
It would probably very helpfull to new buyers if there was a card grading system, but I do think that if people are not prepared to do their homework by visiting a few shows or dexter owners, (most of us are very happy to talk dexters and show people round our herds), and want a cheap bargain, then they will probably get one at York, and the ones which are turned out by the established breeders always make good money anyway
Ann :p
I think York is so well established in the Dexter Sales calender that it can stand a bit of competion, I very rarely have anything to sell through the sales rings these days but have always found York a good place to use if I do, its also a must as a meeting place for us Northern dexter owners so I think it will survive the odd snipe at it.
It would probably very helpfull to new buyers if there was a card grading system, but I do think that if people are not prepared to do their homework by visiting a few shows or dexter owners, (most of us are very happy to talk dexters and show people round our herds), and want a cheap bargain, then they will probably get one at York, and the ones which are turned out by the established breeders always make good money anyway
Ann :p
Rod
The only reason for considering the move by Council is that the auctioneer will not advise potential buyers who are usual first time buyers of any problems/defects that has been noted by The Official Dexter Inspectors. and as Ann says its ideal for any potential buyer to purchase a CHEAP Dexter, with subsidieds now gone surely we need to promote the best Dexters to get the very best price?
Ken
The only reason for considering the move by Council is that the auctioneer will not advise potential buyers who are usual first time buyers of any problems/defects that has been noted by The Official Dexter Inspectors. and as Ann says its ideal for any potential buyer to purchase a CHEAP Dexter, with subsidieds now gone surely we need to promote the best Dexters to get the very best price?
Ken
Ken
Although I did say that people will always be able to get a cheap bargain at York we also have some top quality Dexters sold here, and the prices reflect that, and sometimes because people are not prepared to put the work into their cattle to prepared them for the sales, then sometimes good animals go cheap. I don’t dispute however that some of the animals are not up to show standard, however many people are not worried about having top quality animals, as keeping pedigree dexters if you only want a lawn mower and some meat for the freezer, can become quite expensive if you have to belong to the Dexter society these days when you may only want to register something every two or three years..
York is and always has been a commercial sales ring and I do not think Mr Stevenson would object to a card grading system, but when an animal is entered with a number in the catalogue then I have to agree with York it should be sold in the book order, and if its not top quality then the faults should be pointed out at the time of sale.
The other plus about York is they do not expect you to send your registration certificates in with your entries and only charge £3 entry fee plus commission so that’s always a plus if you get the chance to sell privately as just my personal choice, but I would always prefer to sell to someone I have met and feel that they will make suitable dexter owners than a chance purchase at a sale.
I have seen rubbish sold at Stoneleigh and it’s still passed inspection, maybe it’s tighter these days, I can’t comment on the last 2 sales at Melton Mowbray as I have been out of the country both times.
But once again as previously mention even if the Dexter society take their patronage away from York, I can’t see it making any difference to the entries,
But I don think also animals should be graded.
Ann
:p :p
Although I did say that people will always be able to get a cheap bargain at York we also have some top quality Dexters sold here, and the prices reflect that, and sometimes because people are not prepared to put the work into their cattle to prepared them for the sales, then sometimes good animals go cheap. I don’t dispute however that some of the animals are not up to show standard, however many people are not worried about having top quality animals, as keeping pedigree dexters if you only want a lawn mower and some meat for the freezer, can become quite expensive if you have to belong to the Dexter society these days when you may only want to register something every two or three years..
York is and always has been a commercial sales ring and I do not think Mr Stevenson would object to a card grading system, but when an animal is entered with a number in the catalogue then I have to agree with York it should be sold in the book order, and if its not top quality then the faults should be pointed out at the time of sale.
The other plus about York is they do not expect you to send your registration certificates in with your entries and only charge £3 entry fee plus commission so that’s always a plus if you get the chance to sell privately as just my personal choice, but I would always prefer to sell to someone I have met and feel that they will make suitable dexter owners than a chance purchase at a sale.
I have seen rubbish sold at Stoneleigh and it’s still passed inspection, maybe it’s tighter these days, I can’t comment on the last 2 sales at Melton Mowbray as I have been out of the country both times.
But once again as previously mention even if the Dexter society take their patronage away from York, I can’t see it making any difference to the entries,
But I don think also animals should be graded.
Ann
:p :p
Ann,
All I am saying is that if the DCS sponsor a sale I think potential buyers would expect the animals to be of the very best quality.I have copy of the sales catalogue which was sent to me with the prices listed,Why enter a forteen year old cow which sold for 90gns when you could double that price in the OTMS scheme? The top price being 580 gns for a heifer with steered calf at foot, with an average of 240gns. I am sure someone could come back with prices from the last Melton sale,
Ken
All I am saying is that if the DCS sponsor a sale I think potential buyers would expect the animals to be of the very best quality.I have copy of the sales catalogue which was sent to me with the prices listed,Why enter a forteen year old cow which sold for 90gns when you could double that price in the OTMS scheme? The top price being 580 gns for a heifer with steered calf at foot, with an average of 240gns. I am sure someone could come back with prices from the last Melton sale,
Ken
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Surely what we should be doing is distinguishing clearly between DCS sponsored/approved/inspected sales which are primarily a shop window for the breed and only better than average stock should be presented from a run of the mill sale where there is less emphasis on quality and expectations of high prices. With the breed much larger than it used to be there is more scope for both these types of sale, and I do think there is a very legitimate place for each. Most of the special pedigree sales of cattle and sheep, eg Perth Bull Sales, have breed society inspections to ensure some quality control and protect the breed's general reputation.
I found Ann's comment regarding some rubbish having been sold at Stoneleigh despite inspection interesting, having been an inspector there for several years. There was always an element of feeling from those whose stock had been inspected that we were far to strict, yet I myslelf usually felt that If we had any fault it was being too lenient. I think one thing we did try to do was to be fair and consistent.
At one time there were efforts to grade animals in 5 different categories and as a relative newcomer at the time I was extremely critical of consistency. After trying that for a few years there was a switch to a simple pass/fail inspection with reasons given and failures not admitted to the show nor allowed to be sold in the main sale. The most severe problems arose when individuals claimed they were unaware of the inspections, but as far as I know it was always stated in the entry schedule what would happen, and by entering vendors agree to be bound by the conditions.
Duncan
I found Ann's comment regarding some rubbish having been sold at Stoneleigh despite inspection interesting, having been an inspector there for several years. There was always an element of feeling from those whose stock had been inspected that we were far to strict, yet I myslelf usually felt that If we had any fault it was being too lenient. I think one thing we did try to do was to be fair and consistent.
At one time there were efforts to grade animals in 5 different categories and as a relative newcomer at the time I was extremely critical of consistency. After trying that for a few years there was a switch to a simple pass/fail inspection with reasons given and failures not admitted to the show nor allowed to be sold in the main sale. The most severe problems arose when individuals claimed they were unaware of the inspections, but as far as I know it was always stated in the entry schedule what would happen, and by entering vendors agree to be bound by the conditions.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Hi,
I have been unable to reply to various things on the discussion board recently due to forgetting my password!! It has been frustrating not to add the odd comment!
Re York.I can understand the DCS feelings on wanting to change venues, as there has been some problems between them and the auctioneers that many of us don't know about. However, it is a good , well attended sale with a lot of imput from the Northern Dexter Group. Yes, the stock and the prices weren't particularly good at this Spring sale, but it is only the second sale held at this time of year so will take time to attract decent stock as many of you were unaware it was being held.
Ken, you cannot compare the Spring prices to Melton Mowbray, it should be the Autumn sale. As for the 14 yr old cow, her owner obviously did not want to use the OTMS. She is now in a field with lots of other dexters and has a lovely gloss to her coat and is as happy as can be. If she gives her new owner one calf then she will more than have paid her way.
Where does all the poorer stock get sold "down South", if you don't think you have any at Melton Mowbray, or do you not think you have any poor quality dexters ............?!
I have been unable to reply to various things on the discussion board recently due to forgetting my password!! It has been frustrating not to add the odd comment!
Re York.I can understand the DCS feelings on wanting to change venues, as there has been some problems between them and the auctioneers that many of us don't know about. However, it is a good , well attended sale with a lot of imput from the Northern Dexter Group. Yes, the stock and the prices weren't particularly good at this Spring sale, but it is only the second sale held at this time of year so will take time to attract decent stock as many of you were unaware it was being held.
Ken, you cannot compare the Spring prices to Melton Mowbray, it should be the Autumn sale. As for the 14 yr old cow, her owner obviously did not want to use the OTMS. She is now in a field with lots of other dexters and has a lovely gloss to her coat and is as happy as can be. If she gives her new owner one calf then she will more than have paid her way.
Where does all the poorer stock get sold "down South", if you don't think you have any at Melton Mowbray, or do you not think you have any poor quality dexters ............?!
I'm amazed at this discussion. I thought if you bought from any sale it was a case of buyer beware, and no newcomer should be advised to buy from a sale if they don't know enough about the breed (which is unlikely) to make a reasonable judgement. Existing owners presumably should know what they are looking for well enough to trust their own judgement. And people want different things as proved by the last post. Am I missing the point here? Why are inspections needed? Are there so many really rotten Dexters out there that DCS feels it has to screen them before they go before the public????
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Surely what we should be doing is distinguishing clearly between DCS sponsored/approved/inspected sales which are primarily a shop window for the breed and only better than average stock should be presented from a run of the mill sale where there is less emphasis on quality and expectations of high prices. With the breed much larger than it used to be there is more scope for both these types of sale, and I do think there is a very legitimate place for each. Most of the special pedigree sales of cattle and sheep, eg Perth Bull Sales, have breed society inspections to ensure some quality control and protect the breed's general reputation.
The above is just a copy of the first paragraph of my previous post on this topic. Everyone should try to see the wider picture here, it is not just something the DCS council has dreamed up because there are a lot of poor dexters, or because there are a lot of naughty dexter owners. It is an accepted fact in the pedigree livestock trade that at selected breed socitety approved sales there is inspection to ensure a high standard of entry and provide a really good shop window for the breed.
I would be brave enough to say that through no bad intentions dexter vendors are perhaps more in need of the system than most for a variety of reasons, and this is not meant to be in any way derogatory. One of these reasons is quite simply that many of us come to the breed later in life rather than grow up with them and then start a very small herd with litttle to compare our stock to. Despite the popularity of showing that is no gaurantee of a good education on faults - some of the worst walking animals I have had to reject had been show winners, some have belonged to judges. There is an important difference between inspection and judging - the judge has to place what is in front of him/her, whereas the inspector has to pick out any with faults and reject if these are severe enough. The Stoneleigh Rare Breeds Sale was notorious in its early years for the poor quality of stock of most breeds, and the inspections were introduced in an effort to raise the standard.
There is no shortage of other sales or animals may be sold privately. Or they could just go to the local market on the weekly sale day.
It is unlikely that Aberdeen Angus, Highland, Charolais, Blonde D'Aquitaine, Limousin, Texel, Suffolk, Southdown etc etc would all operate an inspection system and have done so for so long if it were not good for the breed.
Duncan
The above is just a copy of the first paragraph of my previous post on this topic. Everyone should try to see the wider picture here, it is not just something the DCS council has dreamed up because there are a lot of poor dexters, or because there are a lot of naughty dexter owners. It is an accepted fact in the pedigree livestock trade that at selected breed socitety approved sales there is inspection to ensure a high standard of entry and provide a really good shop window for the breed.
I would be brave enough to say that through no bad intentions dexter vendors are perhaps more in need of the system than most for a variety of reasons, and this is not meant to be in any way derogatory. One of these reasons is quite simply that many of us come to the breed later in life rather than grow up with them and then start a very small herd with litttle to compare our stock to. Despite the popularity of showing that is no gaurantee of a good education on faults - some of the worst walking animals I have had to reject had been show winners, some have belonged to judges. There is an important difference between inspection and judging - the judge has to place what is in front of him/her, whereas the inspector has to pick out any with faults and reject if these are severe enough. The Stoneleigh Rare Breeds Sale was notorious in its early years for the poor quality of stock of most breeds, and the inspections were introduced in an effort to raise the standard.
There is no shortage of other sales or animals may be sold privately. Or they could just go to the local market on the weekly sale day.
It is unlikely that Aberdeen Angus, Highland, Charolais, Blonde D'Aquitaine, Limousin, Texel, Suffolk, Southdown etc etc would all operate an inspection system and have done so for so long if it were not good for the breed.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Maybe my remark about rubbish was bit harsh Duncan, but I am talking about pre foot and mouth and in my opinion I have not seen a lot at Stonleigh for many years that I would really want in my herd.
However I do think with inspections it is very difficult because although there may not be any glaring faults with animals it does not mean that they are top class animals,
So a pass or fail means exactly what?
Does it mean that this animal is a Dextex. That in every respect could be taken into the show ring and may win on a good day, a fair day or not at all?
Or its an animal which will always breed you good stock. Or just a good lawn mower. I have seen dexters win at the show at Stoneleigh and fetch good money that are no bigger than Flabella ponies, surely that is not correct?, or is it. .
When you talk about the commercial sales, we are talking animals which over generations have bred true.
Unless you only breed non short to non short then it is impossible to get a true type, so surely as previously mention one can only fail an animal on things like deformed movement, extra white, ect.
I have known an animal rejected because it had extra teats which is a bit of a joke as all the show people cut them of and there is no where to mark this on the registration card, so if they have been cut of at birth, then apart from the breeder no one will know.
So I still think if we are going to inspect animals, and I personally have no problem with that at all. But I do think they should be graded, this would be IMH be much more helpful to buyers, but as Sylvia says people should do their homework before buying at sales, I certainly did mine.
When all is said and done a Sale is a lottery, prices depend very much on how many people want the same animal or animals.
Also just as a point of interest, what does the Dexter society actually do to sponsor the York sale in terms of finance, or publicity?
As we all pay a levy on animals sold their so surely this should pay the petrol for someone to inspect.
I shall now put my flame proof jacket on VBG
Ann :p :p
However I do think with inspections it is very difficult because although there may not be any glaring faults with animals it does not mean that they are top class animals,
So a pass or fail means exactly what?
Does it mean that this animal is a Dextex. That in every respect could be taken into the show ring and may win on a good day, a fair day or not at all?
Or its an animal which will always breed you good stock. Or just a good lawn mower. I have seen dexters win at the show at Stoneleigh and fetch good money that are no bigger than Flabella ponies, surely that is not correct?, or is it. .
When you talk about the commercial sales, we are talking animals which over generations have bred true.
Unless you only breed non short to non short then it is impossible to get a true type, so surely as previously mention one can only fail an animal on things like deformed movement, extra white, ect.
I have known an animal rejected because it had extra teats which is a bit of a joke as all the show people cut them of and there is no where to mark this on the registration card, so if they have been cut of at birth, then apart from the breeder no one will know.
So I still think if we are going to inspect animals, and I personally have no problem with that at all. But I do think they should be graded, this would be IMH be much more helpful to buyers, but as Sylvia says people should do their homework before buying at sales, I certainly did mine.
When all is said and done a Sale is a lottery, prices depend very much on how many people want the same animal or animals.
Also just as a point of interest, what does the Dexter society actually do to sponsor the York sale in terms of finance, or publicity?
As we all pay a levy on animals sold their so surely this should pay the petrol for someone to inspect.
I shall now put my flame proof jacket on VBG
Ann :p :p
Ann
One or two points to update you. The cheque for levy on the Spring sale has been returned to the auctioneer asking him to re imburse the vendors, as it was not a DCS sponsored sale, Yes, DCS pays the expences of the inspectors and if there is also a show, the show judge, we also advertise the sales in the Bulletin for all members to Buy/Sell. Northeren Group requested a card system and it was agreed at a Council meeting for those sales who wanted to use it.
Ken
One or two points to update you. The cheque for levy on the Spring sale has been returned to the auctioneer asking him to re imburse the vendors, as it was not a DCS sponsored sale, Yes, DCS pays the expences of the inspectors and if there is also a show, the show judge, we also advertise the sales in the Bulletin for all members to Buy/Sell. Northeren Group requested a card system and it was agreed at a Council meeting for those sales who wanted to use it.
Ken
As it must be Dexter owners that enter cattle in York I cannot see the problem. Using the old saying ' all publicity is good publicity' York should not just be supported but should be encouraged. My only problem with it is that it is too far away from us down in the south east. I wish there was some where closer for us.
At 90gns I would have bought the older cow. If she was no good for breeding she could make a good profit in the OTMS, harsh maybe, but that is probably her final destination.
I have a twelve year old cow that will be with me until she can no longer look after a calf. she will not be put into a market, but taken direct to our local abattoir where I know she will be treated with dignity.
Martin.
At 90gns I would have bought the older cow. If she was no good for breeding she could make a good profit in the OTMS, harsh maybe, but that is probably her final destination.
I have a twelve year old cow that will be with me until she can no longer look after a calf. she will not be put into a market, but taken direct to our local abattoir where I know she will be treated with dignity.
Martin.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
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Mark Bowles
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1290
- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:03 pm
- Location: Leicestershire England
This is a notice emailed to me today from the DCS office.
York Sale
For the catalogue of the York Spring sale this year the York auctioneers published this sale as an official DCS sale and deducted a levy from the vendors. This was never agreed in advance with the DCS and Council has returned the levy to the Auctioneers requesting them to return the money to the vendors.
Previous attempts to conduct an official DCS sale at York failed because the auctioneer refused to report the results of cattle inspections prior to individual cattle sales. Consequently, as the results of inspections cannot be advised to prospective purchasers, the DCS will not therefore be supporting the York sale this year.
However, in 2006, a venue will be arranged for a Society approved sale in the North.
York Sale
For the catalogue of the York Spring sale this year the York auctioneers published this sale as an official DCS sale and deducted a levy from the vendors. This was never agreed in advance with the DCS and Council has returned the levy to the Auctioneers requesting them to return the money to the vendors.
Previous attempts to conduct an official DCS sale at York failed because the auctioneer refused to report the results of cattle inspections prior to individual cattle sales. Consequently, as the results of inspections cannot be advised to prospective purchasers, the DCS will not therefore be supporting the York sale this year.
However, in 2006, a venue will be arranged for a Society approved sale in the North.
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
So we have a response from the council - "council",what sort of name is that in this day and age?? A response in the form of an e-mail to Mark to go on the site - how convoluted can you get?? Why not post a reply so that a healthy dialogue can take place??
It appears that the council have neither the ability nor the inclination to resolve any issues with the York auctioneers,who have a strong reputation for being proactive and helpful.Does it matter? I certainly think so because promoting our breed and maximising fund raising opportunities to do that more effectively is key to most member's interests.Without doubt the scale of the attendance at the York Rare Breeds Sale offers what should be an unmissable chance to do both.
Unfortunately the council is steering the "good" ship Irrationality and until this hits the rocks I will no longer participate in DCS matters or post to this excellent site that offers such an opportunity for effective dialogue if all interested parties join in.
It appears that the council have neither the ability nor the inclination to resolve any issues with the York auctioneers,who have a strong reputation for being proactive and helpful.Does it matter? I certainly think so because promoting our breed and maximising fund raising opportunities to do that more effectively is key to most member's interests.Without doubt the scale of the attendance at the York Rare Breeds Sale offers what should be an unmissable chance to do both.
Unfortunately the council is steering the "good" ship Irrationality and until this hits the rocks I will no longer participate in DCS matters or post to this excellent site that offers such an opportunity for effective dialogue if all interested parties join in.