First return of Dexters to Ireland

[JohnO]

Ian,
does this mean that if this resolution is rejected the breed standard modifications introduced without reference to an AGM or the membership will become null and void? The modifications I am referring to include one which increases the MINIMUM size of a Dexter bull. This modification has put a large number of bulls outside the breed standard, including bulls owned by current council members!

[Pennielea]

John

There is nothing retrospective in approving these bye laws. Previously (and indeed at present until this resolution is passed) Council were responsible for approval and alteration of the breed standard without the need to discuss or seek approval from the membership provided it was properly proposed and approved at a Council meeting.

Ian

[JohnO]

Ian,
if I am understanding you correctly the effect of this resolution would be to prohibit future modifications to the breed standard without consultation.
You say that currently the Council is responsible for approval and alteration of the breed standard without the need to discuss or seek approval from the membership provided it was properly proposed and approved at a Council meeting.
Has the society taken professional advice on the legality of this and accordingly on the legality of the changes which increased the minimum and maximum size of Dexters?

[Pennielea]

Sorry John

You are attempting to mislead by suggesting that Council now or in the past need to waste Society income by paying legal fees on what is clearly stated in our constitution. When you joined the Society you agreed to be governed by the Constitution which included the Breed Standard as it exists today. If you were not prepared to accept Dexters as defined why did you join or not choose another breed? The proposed bye law is a step forward and leaves the way open for yourself and others to propose an amendment, or even a reversion to an earlier standard, to be considered at a later General Meeting.

I look forward to meeting you again at the AGM and debating this further perhaps with a few drams to widen the debate!

Ian

[Broomcroft]

I always thought, don't know where I got it from, that the old standard was written around Dexters with chondrodysplasia, and that the new standard was brought in to allow animals without chondro to come within the "limits" ???

Also, how do you control a standard when you have lots of other factors affecting size and height? There is a detailed discussion on the American board on this subject where they discussed having two standards, one for chondro, and one for non-chondro. Also, they have discussed and provided evidence for the very significant differences in size and height due to the quality of grazing. Modern grazing can have many times the protein and energy of old leys and grasses. This can make a huge difference as it has done on my farm where most of my grazing is mainly high energy/protein.

If you want a small animal just (a) wean them early, (b) put them onto old leys and keep them there, and (c) put them in calf early. All the leys in the olden times would have been (by modern standards) low energy, so to restrain animals to the sizes that were applicable back then, you are in effect lowering the genetic size/height standard that the breed is aiming to achieve!

[Jac]

If you want a small animal just (a) wean them early, (b) put them onto old leys and keep them there, and (c) put them in calf early. All the leys in the olden times would have been (by modern standards) low energy, so to restrain animals to the sizes that were applicable back then, you are in effect lowering the genetic size/height standard that the breed is aiming to achieve!

Yes b), 'keep them there'. I have purchased adults so called 'medium' leg that when put on a higher plane of nutrition have grown 6 inches!

[Broomcroft]

Yes b), 'keep them there'. I have purchased adults so called 'medium' leg that when put on a higher plane of nutrition have grown 6 inches!

Ditto. Some years ago I bought a bull from a well-respected breeder specifically because he was within standard and he was 4 years so not that much more growing to do.....wrong! Put him on my rye grass and large-clover leys and he shot up and out.

Conversely, I lent out a bull in very good condition to someone with plenty of grass but all old leys. When he came back he must have lost 100kg in just a few months.

[JohnO]

Ian,
you did not answer the question but based on your response I suspect the society believes, as do I and alot of other people, that the modifications were not legal within UK law even if they were within the rules of the society.
A consultation process needs to be gone through, in public, at the end of which a breed standard needs to be put to the membership for approval. The positive changes to the bylaws would then prevent us getting into this situation again.

On a seperate subject a copy of the Cardiff project has been made available to me. It is not any of the versions previously offered on this board but the original 263 page report. It is a shame that this had to come from outside the UK society even though this full report has been made available to some members of the UK society

[Jac]

On a seperate subject a copy of the Cardiff project has been made available to me. It is not any of the versions previously offered on this board but the original 263 page report. It is a shame that this had to come from outside the UK society even though this full report has been made available to some members of the UK society

Don't keep it to yourself. Where can we all obtain a copy from?

[JohnO]

Jac,
sorry but you need to ask the society for a copy. Although I beleive it should be available to all members it is not mine to publish.

[carol d]

uh, John, if your copy came from 'outside the Society' and others are asking where you got it, telling them to get theirs from the Society doesn't wash. Why the secrecy? c.

[wagra dexters]

Height standards can be seen as discouragement to those breeders who will select the biggest bulls available, generation after generation, so as to get more meat for their slaughter fee, risking the loss of any semblance of dual-purposeness on the way and eventually nudging into the lower heights of the traditional beef breeds. It can also be seen as discouragement to those breeders who will select tiny diddley mis-shapen dwarf bulls, generation after generation, in order to access the novelty toy market.

If Graham & I were ever to breed both Dexter types we would impose two seperate height standards upon our own herd so that any carrier lines would not become genetypic giants and any non-carrier lines would not become too diminutive. Self-regulation of herds within the parameters of breed standards is the only thing that makes sense to me.
Margaret

[Pennielea]

John

I thought I had answered your question by saying that it would be a waste of time and money to consider seeking legal opinion on something which is clearly stateted in the constitution of the Society that we are the governing body of the Breed. I have met no one now or in the past who believes that it is illegal to alter the Breed Standard apart from yourself. If you can quote the UK law which you suspect has been broken I will gladly look at it when I have time.

Regardless of what may have happened in the past this latest proposal does mean that it cannot be changed without membership approval which would necessitate consultation as you siuggest. Any opinion which I express on this site is entirely my own and does not represent the position of Council.

On a slightly different note you expressed an opinion earlier in the discussion that something related to Irish Moileds was 'inconsistent'. Is that a genetic term? as in my personal knowledge of that breed certain characteristics are highly dominant in their inheritance.
Ian

[JohnO]

Ian
neither

“You are attempting to mislead by suggesting that Council now or in the past need to waste Society income by paying legal fees on what is clearly stated in our constitution. When you joined the Society you agreed to be governed by the Constitution which included the Breed Standard as it exists today. If you were not prepared to accept Dexters as defined why did you join or not choose another breed?”

nor

“it would be a waste of time and money to consider seeking legal opinion on something which is clearly stateted in the constitution of the Society that we are the governing body of the Breed.”

are answers to the question

“Has the society taken professional advice on the legality of this and accordingly on the legality of the changes which increased the minimum and maximum size of Dexters?”

Yes, no or I don't know come to mind as answers which would further the conversation.

I can assure you that you have met people, other than myself, who believe it was illegal to change the breed standard in the manner in which it was changed. I was present at such a meeting. Whether or not they chose to discuss their concerns with you I do not know.

While it is kind of you to offer to interpret the law for me I think I will stick with the advisers I already have.

My comments on Irish Moileds related to polling and scurs. Here is a link to the societies website telling breeders what to look for

http://www.irishmoiledcattlesociety.com ... scurs.html

I hope this helps

Will AGM attendees be able to visit your herd this coming weekend?

[Pennielea]

No in the past year and I don't know prior to that.

I have not publicly advertised herd visits as I am so tied up in the arrangements over the weekend but if a suitable day and time can be arranged I would be delighted to see people and show what remains of a once successful herd.

Ian