First return of Dexters to Ireland

[JohnO]

Take a look at the Dexter Cattle for sale on this site. Here is an example of a calf which is correctly registered as black



There are others listed on this site. They are quite common. Brown with black points including switch

[Saffy]

John

I would say the animal in the picture is simply changing its coat.

I have farmed all my life and when my British Fresian - mostly black - calves were young they were often coloured very similarly to this especially when they were loosing their coat just like the calf in this picture looks to me to be doing, it is nothing to be alarmed about.

Dexter calves often have a slight brown or reddish tinge to the coat this is quite normal and often becomes more pronounced over the first few months of life.

P.S. You can see a similar colouration if the animal is copper deficient but I think it looks too healthy.

Stephanie

[JohnO]

Saffy,
the point is that this animal in 1917 would have been recorded as brown with a black switch and would subsequently have turned black. The 1917 record does not say dun, tan or faun but brown.

Duncan,
thanks for that. How can I get hold of a full copy of the report?

Quote

"The large difference between the Woodmagic Dexter and all other populations, both Dexter and non-Dexter, is presumed to be a result of small founder number, extended isolation from the UK herd with a small population size, and the application of strong selection"

The evidence points to the difference being that Grinstead Plover blood was concentrated in this herd and bred back onto itself producing dun and other redpoll characteristics and spread from there throughout the dexter breed.

[monica a waltho]

hi, John
if Plover contained alot of Red poll and he was bred back on his relatives Why arent Beryls cattle polled , to my knowledge she didnt have any -and why is there not many polled Duns amywhere else

[carol d]

Thanks, Patti. I was going to approach this from a slightly different place: Anton of Mt. Carmel was registered as red, but was genetically brown. John Potter owned Twainland Caitlin, genetically brown. Neither have a whiff of Wm blood. Both have some post-fdn import English blood, but none of it includes G. Plover. Anton was a very dark brown with white in the switch. I know a little time and some delving into the herd books would bring up a lot more examples. I seem to remember duns at George Branson's, too (Whispering Pines or WP), in Texas. There is ample evidence that dun was in the foundation Dexter population.
A brief canter through old reference books brings up numerous references to the colour of Suffolk Duns, and they are referred to as being yellow, cream, mouse, red, red and white and brindle. Yellow and cream are now proven to be dilute forms of red. So far, brindle has only been confirmed in animals with E+. The dilute form of black can be mousy grey or dun. All of those dilute genes are dominant. None of those colours would be the words of choice to describe Dexter brown.
Icelandic cattle have been genetically isolated for 1000 years, and descend from the same root stock as the Suffolk Dun. They have yellow, cream, dun, mouse, red and brindle. Some have white on them.
Galloway and Highland both come in ‘dun’ tones. Both have diluter genes; neither have brown.
If Red Poll was getting sandy colouration, and they were able to breed it out, perhaps this was from what appears to be dilute genes in the Suffolk Duns? If I were to guess, I’d put my money on black, E+ and diluters. What proof is there that the Suffolk dun, with its many different colours genetically proven to be dilute versions of red ad black, was Dexter brown?
Plover’s not red/not black colouration was recessive, not dominant. Another reason to think his ‘dun’ was not the same as the Red Poll ‘sandy’. English Dexter dun animals have been shown to have Plover in the pedigree, but it would have to be on both sides to manifest. Plover may or may not have been partly Red Poll, but taking it all into consideration, I think it highly unfair to assume so, especially when there is just as much evidence to the contrary-and it’s based on sound scientific principles.
And, as Monica points out, show us proof that Plover was polled, as he would have to be if a RP cross.
I know it sounds like I’m championing Plover. That’s not my objective. What I’m trying to point out is that there is just as much (and probably more) evidence that Plover’s brown gene was not the same as the Red Poll sandy gene (or E+ expressed as taupe/faun), and the brown gene has been around long before Plover. Limited quantity recessive alleles can go years without being expressed. Look at the ‘sheeted’ gene in Galloway cattle. Beryl thought she’d bred out red (in her case accidentally—and luckily there’s still a few of us around who can attest to this). Much like true red in the US being lost for years, the brown gene in England may have been selected away from early on, and remained only in a very few animals. If this were the case, having it expressed would be a remote and very random chance.
I guess my next question would be to ask why there is this obsession to discredit Plover, the Grinsteads and Lady Loder, and by association, Beryl and the Woodmagic bloodline???? C.

PS: Please reread Duncan's post: to get a copy of the Cardiff report, contact the Society.

[JohnO]

Monica,
as a rule WoodMagic(WM) calves were disbudded and therefore any variant of polling would not have shown. Examples could have been scur polling and aborted horns. I have previously referred to modifications to the RedPoll(RP) breed standard. The 1939 standard mentions both aborted horns and scur polling. The RP society had problems producing clean polling until well into the fifties. This shows that normal dominance of polling as seen in Angus was not occuring.

The UK descendant animals of WM sometimes have scurs or aborted horns as this photo demonstrates




In general polling in cattle is not as simple as suggested by basic genetic descriptions. Major breeders and societies have invested heavily to resolve the complications. Take a look at the this article on the Simmental cattle society site

http://www.britishsimmental.co.uk/resea ... dness.html

Polling in the UK Dexter population can to a large extent be traced back to the Migh herd. If you look at the early animals you will see that the herd is heavily influenced by the WM herd. Take a look at Migh Poldard for example. He got polling from his mother who is 7/8 WM, the other 1/8 being Doesmead. Another influence on the herd is Statenboro which as previously mentioned contains Plover blood.

[JohnO]

This thread began because of comments Mrs Neilson made in her election material. Some people have said that it was unfair to comment on her mistake.

The society gives candidates the rare opportunity to address the full membership when presenting themselves for election. Mrs Neilson knowingly abused this privelage. She was fully aware of the Cornahir herd. Mrs Neilson used her position within the society in a similar manner immediately prior to her resignation as chairman of the council last year.

As a member of the society I genuinely appreciate the effort made by council members on behalf of all members of the society.It is unfortunate that not enough members are in a position to put themselves forward to generate an election.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

Some thoughts on polling. There are probably more sources of polling in dexters than is generally realised. Unless all calves had been DNA profiled prior to registaration in the past, which clearly did not happen, there are likely to be instances of mistaken parentage. Mutations causing polling are going to be extremely rare, so rare in fact that we can probably discount this as a source of new polled animals. That polled individuals have existed without being recorded or indeed recognised is without doubt true. Croitachonie Bruin, a red polled bull who left a very large number of descendants in the north east of England and later in the south, was son of Cuerden Cindy. She had previously produced a polled calf in a different ownership, and as I understand it the council of the time refused to register it. But in fact Cindy herself was polled. I bought her as a thirteen year old cow, with Bruin at foot. When my enquiries revealed that the calf had not been dehorned, but was in fact polled, I looked very closely at Cindy and she did indeed have a polled head. Her pedigree goes back to an appendix animal sired by a shorthorn bull. The shorthorn bull, Swinsongrange Challenger, was in fact polled.

I think it extremely unlikely that polling exists or ever did exist in the Woodmagic herd. Beryl was a very observant woman, and hardly likely to have missed it. The herd, being so inbred, would have put up a large number of polled individuals by now if the foundation animals had carried polled genes. Having disbudded a very large number of calves in nearly 40 years as a vet I know that even at the disbudding stage the polled head shows. I was once asked to disbud a "friesian" heifer, couldn't find the buds, and when the cow's service record was produced there was the Aberdeen Angus sire.

The Dexter as a breed is noted for its "prepotency" - ie it has a greater than expected influence on the progeny, and this makes crossing to unknown sires more difficult to spot. Whilst I would not want to put this forward as an explanation for any individual case, in general we should be aware that if something totaly improbable turns up, then it is likely to be the case that all is not as it seems.

Duncan

[JohnO]

The Migh bull I was referring to was Migh Poldark M2447 rather than Migh Poldard however he is merely an example. A look at the polling in alot of early Migh animals points straight to WM.

Duncan I agree that polling in Dexters came from other breeds. You only look for mutation if the characteristic does not exist in animals capable of breeding with the population under study. Books like 'The spontanious polling of Godstone Esmeralda and other bedtime stories' need to be removed from the reading list.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

The online herdbook lists 730 Woodmagic animals. Can anyone name a polled one, or one which produced polled offspring from a mating with a horned partner?

Duncan

[Louisa Gidney]

JohnO mentioned skeletons, which naturally caught my eye. I'd be very interested to see any actual bones to illustrate the point made, or be given an indication of diagnostic features to look for in my own reference collection. I have skeletons of a couple of Woodmagic bred cows, one is definitely non-short but is riddled with arthritis.

[JohnO]

Duncan,
of the 730 Woodmagic animals listed in the online database only 13 are listed as horned.

Regarding your request for polled animals of Wood Magic breeding look at N05943. When you have created some smoke around that 100% woodmagic animal I have lots more for you.

[JohnO]

Louise,
I suggest you contact Crossgar meats as they kill more Dexters than anyone else I know of. Ask for Pelvises as they should demonstrate my point.

[JohnO]

Carol D.
I think it is you that is discreditng and if I may say being rather inventive. Just for today lets look at one thing you have said Icelandic and Suffolk Dun of same route , pray which research paper did that appear from. To my understanding the Suffolk Dun was of mixed origin as with most breeds that emerged from the East of England. Perhaps you are still studying the old Origins of British Cattle that most of us have gathering dust on the top book shelf .

Can you please comment on the changes to the Skeleton structure in the Dexter , and the spontanious polling .

Pictures say more than 1000's of words take a look at this Bulls picture ! as a warm up.



For future reference I have the greatest respect for Lady Loder, Beryl Rutherford and the other breeders who kept the breed from going extinct. Without their work we would not now have Dexters back in Ireland

[Duncan MacIntyre]

Hello John,
We are looking at reported incidence of a dominant gene. Rookewood Bony's sire had 71 offspring, only one other recorded polled by the same breeder to a half sister of Bony. Paternal grandsire had 63 offspring, none recorded polled, paternal granddam 5 offspring, none recorded polled. Maternal grandsire, 17 offspring, none recorded polled; maternal granddam 6 offspring, none recorded polled. This does not seem to be the sort of pattern we would see for a dominant polled gene. I think it is much more likely that there has been an error identifying the polled condition - some may have been recorded as polled when in fact they were dehorned. Likewise many do not have any mention of horns because it was assumed they were horned. As I said in an earlier post, beware of the appearance of the improbable - it may not be true. There are quite a few instances of "bulldogs"recorded to long legged animals.

Whilst I am pointing out the possibility of errors in the herdbook, I do think that these are a small minority and I would not wish to brand the herdbook as seriously flawed - it is a very important record, but does have its limitations. Just as I accept that any legitimately graded up animals will have meant a certain amount of "introgression", I think we need to accept that some errors will have occurred but like the grading up over a number of generations the effect is minimal - the Cardiff project if nothing else proved this to be the case, we still have a breed which is more recognisable than almost any other and also has a healthy breadth of genetic base. I am very wary of the damage over-zealous detective work may do despite being well intentioned.

Duncan