Semen for Holland - information about hight of AI bulls

[PorcPrunus NL]

@Anna, don't worry about hijacking. We both want more information. In my case about the hight measurements from the daughters, in your case about milking.

Peter Falk (Zwitserland) has collected a lot of information about AI bulls: http://www.kapf-sg.ch/

Beryl Rutherford's Woodmagic's are the smallest non-shorts ever, I think. The question is, is this caused by inbreeding, or is it naturally smallness?

Please forgive me for my bad English. I'm from Holland. I speak also German and English (the words!) buth writing a sentence is sometimes a problem.

[wagra dexters]

I can only speak for Wm. Hedgehog 3rd. If he was small due to inbreeding his offspring here would have blown out in size with hybrid vigour.
They didn't. They are all smaller than their dams, and the second generation are also small compared to other lines in our herd.
Margaret

[PorcPrunus NL]

I can only speak for Wm. Hedgehog 3rd. If he was small due to inbreeding his offspring here would have blown out in size with hybrid vigour.
They didn't. They are all smaller than their dams, and the second generation are also small compared to other lines in our herd.
Margaret

thanks!

So I have to look to AI bulls with a lot of Woodmagic in them!

[moomin]

Hi Anna,
The cows on the video are probably all carriers. Maximillian is tested non carrier. They are not the tiny"dwarf" type, I have non-carriers as well.
I like my "short-legs" for one thing they are not so costly to feed,and they finish for beef more easily than the non-carriers. This is very noticeable this winter, both types are on the same basic forage feeding regime. My non-carriers look very poor compared with my carriers and I am having to feed expensive concentrates to them. Also for some reason the "short-legs" have quieter temperaments, ON AVERAGE, than the non-carriers! [I say "on average" as I have had some soppy non-carriers]! I just put a non-carrier bull on them so have no "bulldog" problems. I think the original pretty little cow that Mr. Dexter developed was a carrier.
The whole point about our breed is that there are cows for everyones taste. We keep what we like. It doesn't matter what other people think about my cows , the important thing is that I like them!
On the subject of milk production: we have no herds that I am aware of at the present in the UK that are milk recorded so we have to look to the past.
Most of the small Dexter herds that were in milk production stopped milking when the bulk milk tank was introduced - it wasn't financially viable. If you look at pedigrees you will see certain bulls and cows with letters after their names - for instance Sarum Bullrush has RM after his name, this means Register of Merit for awarded for the milk production of his daughters. Canwell Buster has DBL which means Dairy Bull licence so the chances are that anything with those letters after the name will produce good milkers.
I am passionate that we don't lose our milk genetics but it is not possible to provide official stastistics without milking herds - we can only offer subjective advice.
The tendency is to have beef herds now in the UK - that is the present market. It worries me that this means that some breeders are using bulls that look beefy and are not concerned about milk production. It would be a sad day if Dexters did not produce enough milk to feed their own calf! Thankfully I don't think that has happened yet.
The most important thing in choosing a bull is to know his mother and grandmothers. do not keep a bull no matter how beautiful he looks if his mother is not exceptional quality. Make sure she has a good udder and teats, is producing adequate milk, walks well and is pretty!
Yesterday we castrated a really beautiful looking bull in all respects but his mother has bottle teats - she always produces good calves but I will never keep one as a bull, they will all go for meat and so will her heifers.
I have only put bulls on AI from the very best cows with good milking potential. I was very fortunate in living near the Statenboro' herd, Miss Robinson was in milk production so I know I have good milk genetics in my herd.
By the way if you want pretty dexter heifers use a pretty bull and remember we are a dual-purpose breed so our bulls should not be too heavy, happy medium is the aim!
Kind regards to all,
Di

[Anna]

I did know about the Register of Merit thing but I have never realized I can look for it in the online herd book.

Now I have spent an hour looking for RM cows and looking up the pedigrees of AI bulls. I may have missed a few since I searched for animals with "rm" in their names, not an optimal way on searching.

I found:
14 Knotting RM cows/bulls
2 Knotting CM cow
1 Woodmagic RM cow

I checked all Statenboro dexters but no RM animals. Did many milking herds not report milk yield? Woodmagic and Statenboro (and other milking herds) should have more RM cows, shouldn´t they?

The AI bulls I have found with RM animals in their pedigree is:
Moomin Posh – his father is Sarum Bullrush RM
Knotting Leo 3rd – mother is Knotting L´ladysat RM (Saturn RM/Little Ladydale RM)
Elmwwod Macoy – mother Elmwood Meg´s ifather is Knotting Saturn RM (Sarum Bullrush RM)

This is at least something. Di, thanks for help finding this out!

Investigate the herd book is good fun, but it would have been more fun if I could find more RM animals.. I am a little discouraged by this. I understand that many many cows that milks well and probably is of RM quality exist, but how do anyone know?

I am afraid that soon we will not be able to call the Dexter a true dual purpose breed. I don´t think cows often will have problems feeding their calfs, they will be culled in a suckler herd. But a dual purpose cow should be able to feed two calfs.. and that is really not an advantage in a suckler herd since she risks mastitis. A fairly short lactating period is also good in a suckler herd; if the cow by herself weans a fat and sassy calf at seven months she has plenty of time to recover and will be in excellent form before next calf. But a milker that dries herself up at seven months is too poor, and you will need two cows instead of one. Is this discussed a lot/at all in UK? I think there are breeders in US and Canada who is very conscious about breeding dual purpose Dexters. In Scandinavia almost every Dexter is a suckler. What is the case in Holland?

[PorcPrunus NL]

In Holland most cows suckle their own calves. Never heard anyone complaining about to little milk.
When I see how fast the suckling calves grow, their should be no worries about milkyness.

2 years ago we realised a judging system. It works with lineair scores. Udders are also scored. Nobody likes big udders with a lot of hard fractions in it. We rather have the smooth elastic udders wich dry up fast after weaning. (less likely mastitis)

[Anna]

FYI, I found height info on Elmwood Mackoy in a DCS Bullentin: 44 inches = 112 cm.

The Danish AI bulls for export are Ebbehøj Nimbus, 108 cm and Luna Rasmus 110 cm.

No info on age when measured.

[wagra dexters]

Height must be accompanied by age, measuring site (hips or shoulder) & chondro status to be of any significance whatsoever. Hips are the most reliable site and the animal must be standing evenly, on concrete preferably. Three years of age is the usual age for measurement comparison.

Bindalee Celtic Chieftain by Trillium Cluny from Woodmagic Mourning Dove 2nd measured as 105cm across the hips when he was 3 years of age. He did not stop growing until he was 7 years old when he was 112cm. He remained 112cm for the next 4 years that we owned him. His breeding consisted solely of the Dexters that Beryl sold into Canada, 3/4 Woodmagic & 1/4 Doesmead. (Doesmead breeding adds that extra height over the Woodmagic without Doesmead)

All our cattle continue to grow beyond 3 years of age.
Margaret



Edited By wagra dexters on 1297674861

[Anna]

Yes, height without knowing what age when measured is not worth very much.

I wonder, how does it work in your countries (Australia, UK, Holland for instance), do you ask for an official measurement for registred animals? At a specified age?



Edited By Anna on 1297675723

[PorcPrunus NL]

Yes, height without knowing what age when measured is not worth very much.

I wonder, how does it work in your countries (Australia, UK, Holland for instance), do you ask for an official measurement for registred animals? At a specified age?

In our lineair scoring system height is measured at shoulder. This because the standard talks aboud measurements at shoulder.
We also think measurement at hip means more. Maybe we change the place of measurement or measure both places!

In the results there is always a 'age of measurement'.
This is very important, not only for the height measurement, but also for depth of udder, widht between front legs, body depth etc.

[PorcPrunus NL]

I've collected information from different internetsites about hight measurements (in cm, age in years)
k = hip, s = shoulder, u = unknown
(these are all non-carriers)

Dannyboy 118 cm age: 4,5 k
Red Prince 117 cm age: 4,1 k
Moomin Posh 119,4 k
Knotting Leo 121,5 u
Pendragon 117 k and 120 k age unknown
Moomin Mac Duff 118 u
Elmwood Mackoy 117 k age 4,5
Elmwood Robson 122 k
Elmgrove Millenium 116,8 u
Breoch Sultan 116 s 118 age 5 years
Cornahir Outlaw 115 age 5
Woodmagic Hedgehog III 99cm 3 years

Luna Rasmus 110cm s age 1,11
Ebbenoj Nimbus 108 s age 2,5 ; 112 k age ?
But I think these measurements are not saying much about how their progeny looks like.
For example the first 3, Redberry prince is the smallest and Moomin Posh the highest. But what I've heard, and what's written earlier in this topic is that Posh give the smallest progeny and Redberry Prince the biggest.

What should be done?
- from AI bulls should be measured daughters, and compare them to their mothers. Not only for height measurements but also for milkyness and meat properties.

[JamsHundred]

There is a carrier bull in the US that has been collected for international export. His name is "Max of the Double D" and his sire is Parndon Bullfinch.

I personally have a number of animals in my herd who has this ancestor. It is my experience that the personality of bulls from this line are very "laid-back" and even comical. Very intelligent.

My bulls from this line tended to breed smaller than themselves. Since I prefer to use carrier bulls and try to breed to early UK traditional phenotypes I like the animals from these bloodlines.

I do not know how to post a photo, but if you email me directly I will be happy to send you a photo. jamshundred@aol.com

You can contact the owner of the bull and the semen at this email address if you have an interest: pdparson@nemr.net

Good luck !! I like hearing that they are working to keep down the size in Holland. I do not like nor do I think it in the best interests of the breed to increase the size in the breed standard.

Judy

[Duncan MacIntyre]

How I agree that the size allowed by the breed standard should not be increased.The UK standard has been increased from what was internationally agreed at the first World Congress. I was not party to the decision to increase the size, so do not really know what informed such a decision. However, I am deeply concerned that the size of Dexters in UK is creeping upward, driven by several factors. Possibly the main factor is the emphasis on beef production, which in current times is difficult to avoid. But difficult as it may be I firmly believe that we should resist the temptation to increase the size to increase the profitablility of the beef. This should be achievable simply by charging a premium price for a premium product, which is what we have. Those who want big sides of beef should change to a different breed. The taste and quality is in part determined by the size of the carcase and increasing the size may well destroy our premium product.
Another major factor is the interaction between short and long legs, or short and non short if you are sensitive, or chondro carrier and chondro non carrier if you like. Many short legged Dexters of today are bred up close to the maximum height recommended, so when the long legs appear, surprise surprise, we have a giraffe which no one wants.

To produce consistent sized Dexters within the height limits and within the historical expected weight of Dexters, we need to avoid the chondro carriers and use true breeding animals where the real height is evident - what you see is what you get. Whilst some short leg enthusiasts prefer to believe that the early Dexters were chondro carriers, I do not. I think it is much more probable that the chondro carrier arose and was exploited to export "cute" little Dexters to England in the mid 1800's. Keeping animals of a breed doomed to loose 25% of calves plus the damage done to the cows by chondrodysplasia woud be the prerogative of the rich and famous, not the Irish small farmer of the late 1700's and early 1800's.

This is not a lecture the our friends in the Netherlands, but to all who read our posts. I would urge any in doubt to read Beryl's book - if you haven't got one yet there are some left, or borrow one and read it.

I have spent the last decade with a small herd aiming to produce cows of about 38 inches and bulls of about 43 inches, having eliminated the chondrodysplasia gene from my herd. My current carcase weights are about 120kg, from a live weight of say 240kg, finished of nothing but grass at 26 moinths or thereabouts. Assuming that an animal of that age equates to about 2/3 of its eventual totally mature weight, I think that is about right for the Dexter of the late 19th and early 20th century.

There are many others out there quietly breeding only non chondro Dexters, and having observed some of those herds for over 25 years now, I can assure you that in the long term the policy pays of, the quality improves with each generation. The depth of body, weight of bone, and general conformation in some herds has produced a very acceptable animal, in contrast to herds where the selection is for the short leg. In some of those herds the short leg has got much bigger, heavier, with heads and feet out of proportion. They have lost the appeal of "Rosemary", No 4 in the 1890 Dublin Herd Book.

I think we can produce the likes of Rosemary without the chondro gene.

Much as it may surprise you after reading all this, I am not in favour of a witch-hunt against the types I have criticised - the DCS must remain a "broad church" in the bovine sense of the expression, allowing the vast variation we enjoy in the breed to continue. Our strength as a breed is greatly helped by unity and tolerance. To divide us would destroy us.

Duncan

[wagra dexters]

Parndon Bullfinch is to US as Parndon Buster Finch and other Charlie Pudding off-spring are to UK. Hard to get away from!

I'd be searching a lot harder before settling on a chondro-carrier with a short pedigree, not that there are many Dexters in the world that have any less introgression.

All our Dexters have chondrodysplasia in their pedigrees. If the non-carrier offspring are within acceptable height range and exude excellent temperament and dual purpose charcteristics, we'd be mad to throw the baby out etc, BUT ... the only justifiable argument I can see for including yet another chondro-carrier on an international AI list would be if that bull is absolutely top notch otherwise, and has the longest purest Dexter pedigree with as much science to prove it as possible.

The short-leg isn't going to go away, even with our alternative 'small-leg' as an option. Some people love the short-leg to bits. Just not me!
Margaret

[Liz D]

I have two very small, very milky, chondro free daughters from the Knotting (Saturn -Sarum Bullrush and Sarah of Knotting) x Woodmagic lines. (AI daughters of Riverhill Saturn's Galaxy) The 5 yr old is 40" (hip) and 11.6 kg milk (3rd lactation) and the two yr old is smaller but not yet mature enough to definitively say height or milk. Both cows are extremely long with good depth and butts, or dual purpose. I find that my others look more 'dairy' in fineness of bone and flesh. So I am really impressed with the Saturn of knotting line!