We sell youngsters for £1.65-1.70 a kilo liveweight. Shorts have no value in our market either and go in our freezer. Sales are done from the farm privately but if I held it at a market and made sure that the buyers knew it was on, I see no reason why the same prices should not be achieved. Good quality stock AND good marketing are needed, no good having just the one, or neither!
At the end of the winter, some animals can look dreadful and aren't going to sell except at rock bottom prices. For all the buyer knows, they could have BVD or something else even though they are probably just out of condition. I've got some animals that no matter what I do look bad by April, then out on grass after a few weeks they fill out and start shining; you can hardly recognise them.
York Sales - Poor
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
We attended the May sale last year at Holsworthy, we had a similar thing. stock selling for around £120 per animal, again to echo previous thoughts, they were a disgrace.
BUT there were also stock from well known Dexter herds which sold at £350 per heifer, a price which reflected the quality of the stock and also the condition in which they were sold. So its not about the breed so much but the manner in which the stock have been bred and kept over winter.
At the end of the day, we all try and help newbies and this site has so much information, but some folks always feel they know better and fail to follow good advice
This years native breed sale (as its known) is due very shortly, may be we will see the same situation again.
Carole
BUT there were also stock from well known Dexter herds which sold at £350 per heifer, a price which reflected the quality of the stock and also the condition in which they were sold. So its not about the breed so much but the manner in which the stock have been bred and kept over winter.
At the end of the day, we all try and help newbies and this site has so much information, but some folks always feel they know better and fail to follow good advice
This years native breed sale (as its known) is due very shortly, may be we will see the same situation again.
Carole
Callington, Cornwall
Most Dexter keepers are 'hobby farmers' (not intended as an insult as that is what I class myself as). What I can't understand is how can they not look after them. I would be ashamed to admit that some of the stock presented for sale at markets belonged to me.
I had the oportunity to buy some very poor animals earlier this month that I knew would do well given good grass and a little TLC. I didn't buy them as I do not have any fields that are not visible from footpaths or roads, and would not be happy for Jo Public to think that I treated my cattle in such a poor manner.
Make such excuses as you please, I think it is unaceptable for animals to be present in a sale that are malnourished in any shape or form. Ignorance is also an unaceptable excuse.
As most of us also work for a living, the price of forage/feed is not an issue (or should not be), my animals get what they need regardless of cost. I would go without myself before I allowed my animals to get in such a poor state as some I have seen.
How can you gain any pleasure in looking at poor quality stock?
I had the oportunity to buy some very poor animals earlier this month that I knew would do well given good grass and a little TLC. I didn't buy them as I do not have any fields that are not visible from footpaths or roads, and would not be happy for Jo Public to think that I treated my cattle in such a poor manner.
Make such excuses as you please, I think it is unaceptable for animals to be present in a sale that are malnourished in any shape or form. Ignorance is also an unaceptable excuse.
As most of us also work for a living, the price of forage/feed is not an issue (or should not be), my animals get what they need regardless of cost. I would go without myself before I allowed my animals to get in such a poor state as some I have seen.
How can you gain any pleasure in looking at poor quality stock?
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
allthough all the points raised a valid i feel alot of the poor stock around is due to the simple fact that "because that beast is ped reg it must be ok to breed from" .this is a problem i have come across alot in a few years.
the same point i raised a year or so ago on this site and was ridiculed for by other users . yes i know its close to the bone when someone else comments on the state of your cattle but i still feel the society should be more aware of the problem and put in place some sort of selective breeding prgram rather than letting joe blogs buy and breed more poor stock
im not against ped reg but feel there has been pushing it alot but why bother if is going into the food chain
i myself have stock that could of been ped reg but have chose not because of this also animals that i wish were ped reg as theyve turned out to be good sorts
the same point i raised a year or so ago on this site and was ridiculed for by other users . yes i know its close to the bone when someone else comments on the state of your cattle but i still feel the society should be more aware of the problem and put in place some sort of selective breeding prgram rather than letting joe blogs buy and breed more poor stock
im not against ped reg but feel there has been pushing it alot but why bother if is going into the food chain
i myself have stock that could of been ped reg but have chose not because of this also animals that i wish were ped reg as theyve turned out to be good sorts
Stew,
selection is one of the most important items on the pedigree breeders list of things to do. Sadly within Dexterdom in particular too many people become attached to the animals they breed and selection becomes a lot more simple, bulls for meat, heifers for breeding. Quality does not seem to have any influence for some.
What to do about it is the problem, education is the key but how can you educate people that maybe not in the Society or not in a group or just not interested because they want to 'do their own thing'.
Within the Dexter Society there is a wealth of knowledge and a lot of people doing it right, it is up to them to assist new comers and pass this knowledge on. If they don't the situation will only get worse.
selection is one of the most important items on the pedigree breeders list of things to do. Sadly within Dexterdom in particular too many people become attached to the animals they breed and selection becomes a lot more simple, bulls for meat, heifers for breeding. Quality does not seem to have any influence for some.
What to do about it is the problem, education is the key but how can you educate people that maybe not in the Society or not in a group or just not interested because they want to 'do their own thing'.
Within the Dexter Society there is a wealth of knowledge and a lot of people doing it right, it is up to them to assist new comers and pass this knowledge on. If they don't the situation will only get worse.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
Selection for what? The danger is that in selecting for today’s requirements, you may well lose something not recognised which could prove invaluable at some future date. That has already occurred in most commercial breeds. If we had not had a lot of small breeders ‘doing their own thing’ in the past we could well have lost our immunity to B.S.E. I hope they will continue to do so.
It has nothing to do with cattle arriving in the show ring in poor condition, the ordinary farmer does put odd animals into the weekly sales in poor condition the Dexter breeder may be aware that the weekly auction of ordinary breeds is useless and so they arrive at our rare breed sales.
We do tend to suggest they can live on fresh air, and we should make a bigger effort to educate the newcomer, but very often the ‘poor animal’ is the result of some emergency such as sickness or death of the owner, and we don’t make a sale easy for the small breeder. By the time the seller in desperation puts it into our show it may have been improperly looked after for some time.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
It has nothing to do with cattle arriving in the show ring in poor condition, the ordinary farmer does put odd animals into the weekly sales in poor condition the Dexter breeder may be aware that the weekly auction of ordinary breeds is useless and so they arrive at our rare breed sales.
We do tend to suggest they can live on fresh air, and we should make a bigger effort to educate the newcomer, but very often the ‘poor animal’ is the result of some emergency such as sickness or death of the owner, and we don’t make a sale easy for the small breeder. By the time the seller in desperation puts it into our show it may have been improperly looked after for some time.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
By selection Beryl, I mean whether it can walk correctly, does not have 10 teats, the jaw is correct to enable it to eat properly and is a good representation of the breed.
Your not sugesting that you do not 'select' what you breed from and what goes to the butcher are you Beryl?
I understand from what you have written in the past that you selected your animals to get rid of certain genes that you decided where not wanted or desired in the breed.
Selection is an important factor in where your herd is now. Yes I will admit that you had your critics and you 'did your own thing' but that was the correct thing for you to do at that time, or are you sugesting that it happened by chance?
As well as anyone you know that there are people breeding from animals that do not represent the breed standard, you are youself a critic of overheight animals and the only way to get the height down is through selection.
Do people that have cabinets full of trophies not select their best (or most suitable) animals to breed from to enable that success?
Selection can be for particulair traits or just sorting the wheat from the chaf, I'm sugesting that the later is what newcomers should be taught, I would not sugest anything else especially for the inexperienced breeder.
Your not sugesting that you do not 'select' what you breed from and what goes to the butcher are you Beryl?
I understand from what you have written in the past that you selected your animals to get rid of certain genes that you decided where not wanted or desired in the breed.
Selection is an important factor in where your herd is now. Yes I will admit that you had your critics and you 'did your own thing' but that was the correct thing for you to do at that time, or are you sugesting that it happened by chance?
As well as anyone you know that there are people breeding from animals that do not represent the breed standard, you are youself a critic of overheight animals and the only way to get the height down is through selection.
Do people that have cabinets full of trophies not select their best (or most suitable) animals to breed from to enable that success?
Selection can be for particulair traits or just sorting the wheat from the chaf, I'm sugesting that the later is what newcomers should be taught, I would not sugest anything else especially for the inexperienced breeder.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
martin
you seem to understand what i ment and i echo that of education but thinkthe society should do more of a job to elimanate poor stock we see at these sales that shouldnt be breed from due to conformation
it seems to me that poor stock breeds poor stock and this is having an knock on effect on prices of all dexters as butcher that have paid good price for poor quality stuff are now reluctant to be bitten twice and now dictate what they want to pay
i myself breed dexters amongst other livestock and also own a butchers so i prefer a more meaty dexter so i breed for that but have struggled to buy dexter stores of the same trend
i will continue in my quest to promote dexter beef in my shop and to breed what i deem as quality dexter cattle
you seem to understand what i ment and i echo that of education but thinkthe society should do more of a job to elimanate poor stock we see at these sales that shouldnt be breed from due to conformation
it seems to me that poor stock breeds poor stock and this is having an knock on effect on prices of all dexters as butcher that have paid good price for poor quality stuff are now reluctant to be bitten twice and now dictate what they want to pay
i myself breed dexters amongst other livestock and also own a butchers so i prefer a more meaty dexter so i breed for that but have struggled to buy dexter stores of the same trend
i will continue in my quest to promote dexter beef in my shop and to breed what i deem as quality dexter cattle
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AlisonKirk
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:16 pm
Rob and I hosted the Midland Group AGM this year and members were able to see all our cattle - fatteners, youngsters, calving cows, bulls and ask questions about our management system. Midland Group members are all invited to attend a herd visit on 7 June when they will be able to see all these animals again out at grass and see the difference in those animals.
The thinking behind this is to hopefully give those members new to Dexters an insight into the potential of farming Dexters and perhaps give some ideas to more established members.
In July, Mike and Sue Bancroft are hosting the meeting plus herd visit and in February this year, Roger and Ann Lea hosted the meeting and guest speaker was David Hendy an independent livestock nutritionalist.
I am sure most members learn something at every meeting whether they are experienced or new to Dexters. The Midland Group welcome new comers to Dexters and are lucky to have some very experienced members, who are farming Dexters as a business, and more than willing to give advice to any group members.
Dexters are farm animals and need to be managed correctly. The onus is on prospective new Dexter keepers to find out all they can about the breed prior to purchase. The Society has information available and details of Field Officers / Group Secretaries.
Would these same people ever consider having a Belgian Blue herd for instance? I don't think so. It's the size / superb beef of the Dexter compared to other cattle that are making it so popular and in a few cases, perhaps not enough thought is being given to the management of these animals.
Alison Kirk
Boram Dexters
The thinking behind this is to hopefully give those members new to Dexters an insight into the potential of farming Dexters and perhaps give some ideas to more established members.
In July, Mike and Sue Bancroft are hosting the meeting plus herd visit and in February this year, Roger and Ann Lea hosted the meeting and guest speaker was David Hendy an independent livestock nutritionalist.
I am sure most members learn something at every meeting whether they are experienced or new to Dexters. The Midland Group welcome new comers to Dexters and are lucky to have some very experienced members, who are farming Dexters as a business, and more than willing to give advice to any group members.
Dexters are farm animals and need to be managed correctly. The onus is on prospective new Dexter keepers to find out all they can about the breed prior to purchase. The Society has information available and details of Field Officers / Group Secretaries.
Would these same people ever consider having a Belgian Blue herd for instance? I don't think so. It's the size / superb beef of the Dexter compared to other cattle that are making it so popular and in a few cases, perhaps not enough thought is being given to the management of these animals.
Alison Kirk
Boram Dexters
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
We all use our eyes but i think part of the point Beryl is making is that genetics and maintaining genes from the past for which no-one knows the benefit of yet, is quite a different matter from selecting animals based upon their looks. Actually, even bad conformation can be an attribute of what could be a otherwise an extremely special animal. Because Dexters haven't been mucked about with, they must be a treasure-trove of genes from the past and from other breeds from the past, breeds that have now lost those genes and once lost probably cannot be reclaimed from within the improved breed itself. or at least in realistic terms.
One example could be the ability to finish on grass. That ability is not just about being big or small, most breeds have now been selected and bred for those that cope well with grain and they may have lost the genes that allow them to convert grass into finished beef efficiently.
We are members of two sheep societies. One does visual examination of tups before they can be registered, and it has advantages but also has serious disadvantages. When you are tying to breed to for something special, in our instance worm-resistant tups, it is very worrying when some judge starts looking at whether it has a black spot on it's leg, or perhaps it's feet aren't perfect. The worm resistance is precious, the other two factors could be put up with and bred out in time, so to reject the animal on the other two factors would have been a great shame. As it happens our worm-resistant tup we took for judging, passed, but only just. My heart was in my mouth when he decided.
Our other breed has gone down the route of Signet recording. Prior to that, visual appraisal was everything. The result is that some of those flocks that were at the top of the league and bred fantastic looking tups, are now at the bottom. And some of the most ordinary looking flocks are now at the top, that is if you recognise having a high index as being at the top. Obviously, if you are breeding for looks, then looks matter. By pure luck and having only bought the animals that other people would sell, we now have the highest index tup in the UK by quite a margin. Having made the change from fantastic looking tups to ones with good figures that look in the main very ordinary and you would never pick out, the difference in the lambs this year is dramatic in every way.
At a show recently (West Mids), a judge was ill. They asked a professional shepherd who runs a 3000 ewe flock to stand in. They gave him the microphone and asked him how he was going to go about judging the sheep in front of him. He said, "Well I don't know really because you can't tell by looking, I need to see their records and indexes, but I'll do what I can."
If you are going to judge animals by how the perform, that is one thing. But if you are going to judge by what they look like, that is old hat now. My best beef cow, as I have said before, is not a pretty sight. But her calves have produced excellent beef with figures similar to a Limousin scaled-down. I also have good-looking cows that produce good results but none it has to be said quite reach her standards.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1241096384
One example could be the ability to finish on grass. That ability is not just about being big or small, most breeds have now been selected and bred for those that cope well with grain and they may have lost the genes that allow them to convert grass into finished beef efficiently.
We are members of two sheep societies. One does visual examination of tups before they can be registered, and it has advantages but also has serious disadvantages. When you are tying to breed to for something special, in our instance worm-resistant tups, it is very worrying when some judge starts looking at whether it has a black spot on it's leg, or perhaps it's feet aren't perfect. The worm resistance is precious, the other two factors could be put up with and bred out in time, so to reject the animal on the other two factors would have been a great shame. As it happens our worm-resistant tup we took for judging, passed, but only just. My heart was in my mouth when he decided.
Our other breed has gone down the route of Signet recording. Prior to that, visual appraisal was everything. The result is that some of those flocks that were at the top of the league and bred fantastic looking tups, are now at the bottom. And some of the most ordinary looking flocks are now at the top, that is if you recognise having a high index as being at the top. Obviously, if you are breeding for looks, then looks matter. By pure luck and having only bought the animals that other people would sell, we now have the highest index tup in the UK by quite a margin. Having made the change from fantastic looking tups to ones with good figures that look in the main very ordinary and you would never pick out, the difference in the lambs this year is dramatic in every way.
At a show recently (West Mids), a judge was ill. They asked a professional shepherd who runs a 3000 ewe flock to stand in. They gave him the microphone and asked him how he was going to go about judging the sheep in front of him. He said, "Well I don't know really because you can't tell by looking, I need to see their records and indexes, but I'll do what I can."
If you are going to judge animals by how the perform, that is one thing. But if you are going to judge by what they look like, that is old hat now. My best beef cow, as I have said before, is not a pretty sight. But her calves have produced excellent beef with figures similar to a Limousin scaled-down. I also have good-looking cows that produce good results but none it has to be said quite reach her standards.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1241096384
Clive
It does not matter how you try to explain things, selection happens. Mother nature selects the strongest to survive, good stockpersons select what to breed out of. Its no good having animals that cannot walk properly, who constantly require attention, who cannot calve on their own, who don't produce enough milk, the list could be endless. I have culled animals that did not respect fences or where too flighty. We all select.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
It is precisely because Mother Nature has had thousands of years to select I am sure I am unlikely to improve greatly, and certainly not by judging them on looks. You are now stating that you are doing it on grounds of performance with which I have no quarrel. Although I have to confess that Mother Nature might encourage the animal that could successfully negotiate an obstacle, if the grass looked greener the other side! The Holstein is the best example of ‘man’s success’ in selection; I don’t find it inspiring.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
Beryl (Woodmagic)
Hi Beryl,
I don't think I sugested that we should select through looks, although I believe most would take that into consideration. Your point about the animal that is predisposed to escape is valid though not a desirable atribute for most.
The Holstien is a very good example to us all for what can be achieved and at what cost.
I don't think I sugested that we should select through looks, although I believe most would take that into consideration. Your point about the animal that is predisposed to escape is valid though not a desirable atribute for most.
The Holstien is a very good example to us all for what can be achieved and at what cost.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
One of the best books I've read on how to select is by an Argentinian beef farmer. He is from a farming family that has been producing beef purely from grass for generations on a large scale. He has two farms, a small one that holds about 10,000 young stock and the proper farm which holds about 40,000 head. I assume he knows what he is talking about!!! His animals are Angus and Hereford types. Producing beef out on the range purely from grass has to be the closest thing to natural as you can get I suppose.
Some of the ways he selects came as a surprise. He does not chose bulls with big bums because they will then produce big-bummed calves and more beef, because they are not male enough. He calls such bulls with big bums etc, high-maintenance. The male should be a fighting machine he says, small at the back end, very strong neck, big front-end etc. He says that this is the only way to retain the natural breeding ability and fertility. A lot of what he says is so at odds with what the British selection process has been for years that you can see why so many breeds have gone so wrong assuming he is correct. They are not "natural". He admits that his animals do not produce the maximum beef but they produce ample. When taking into account the fact his stock is extremely low maintenance, almost totally free-range, that is where he gains.
Some of the ways he selects came as a surprise. He does not chose bulls with big bums because they will then produce big-bummed calves and more beef, because they are not male enough. He calls such bulls with big bums etc, high-maintenance. The male should be a fighting machine he says, small at the back end, very strong neck, big front-end etc. He says that this is the only way to retain the natural breeding ability and fertility. A lot of what he says is so at odds with what the British selection process has been for years that you can see why so many breeds have gone so wrong assuming he is correct. They are not "natural". He admits that his animals do not produce the maximum beef but they produce ample. When taking into account the fact his stock is extremely low maintenance, almost totally free-range, that is where he gains.
Clive