Going Ex-Pedigree

welshdexterboy · Post by **welshdexterboy** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:58 am

Clive Although I don't register any bulls and only birth notify the steers what you says does make a lot of sense and I would be happy to be one of the 25 to sign the paper if it meant (a) lower charges for people and (b) It kept your herd registered and therefore kept a wider gene pool going. Lets hope they see sense.

Peter thornton · Post by **Peter thornton** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:26 am

I absolutely agree with Clive on thr overage fees and the high price (and complexity) of bull registration.

I don't know where I'm going to find a bull this Summer and if I can't find one locally then I may follow Clive and go "unregistered"

I wrote to the steering committee months ago making these points and didn't get a reply.

Sometimes I wonder what the poor old Dexter cow has done to deserve all of this.............

The last time I looked at the societies accounts it seemed to me that they were heading for difficulties. Registrations down and expenses up (I know that there's a move to reduce expenses but by how much?)

The Society needs to decide whether it's a society which wants to expand the breed or whether it's content to end up with a small nucleus of funny little cows that depend upon a deformity for their looks.

There are 4 Dexter keepers around here and 3 of them have either left or are about to leave.

PLEASE Council, wake up and smell the coffee!!

justmalc · Post by **justmalc** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:58 pm

Sorry, I'm a bit late to this topic but I agree with a lot of the points Clive has made.

The overage fees just don't make sense and in fact inhibit responsible selection.

One other fee which I've never understood is the £20 fee for selling animals to a non-member.

I sell a number of breeding animals each year and always strongly recommend membership. However, many purchasers who buy just a couple of cows don't want to join and want to keep life simple. In addition, at the time of the sale virtually all purchasers who are starting out have not yet joined the society.

I suppose technically at that point I would be liable for £20 on each sale - would the Society then refund if purchasers subsequently signed up for membership? In theory I could simply avoid any potential liability by not submitting a herd return. This fee just doesn't make sense and appears unenforceable.

Can we have a complete review of fees?

Regards,

Malcolm.

Pennielea · Post by **Pennielea** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:00 pm

I was reading the 'spring' (they are optimistic)edition of 'The Ark' from RBST and see an article about free registration of Gloucester Cattle for 2009. Apparently to get back in some of the pedigree cattle which have never been registered.

Ian

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:44 pm

You might as well whistle in the wind Ian. I put a lot of effort into trying to persuade the SC to not only get rid of the high bull and overage fees, but also to have an amnesty to get bulls back (like Ted Neal suggested or similar). Financially, business-wise, etc it was a no-brainer and some at least were persuaded. It would also help to achieve what a lot of people are concerned about by allowing genes that have been "lost" to the records at least, to be brought back into the herd book possibly (doubt if that would hapen very much but might do).

However, the council made it clear to me that they not only want to retain the high fees, they also put them up, and they said that they consider it necessary to maintain/improve quality. To quote, the words are "it makes people think about registering a bull". With the overage fee, the words are "because we can and some people will pay it.", that was the only explanation given to me. You probably won't find those quotes in any minutes.

Personally, I have been thinking of a new, free or almost free herd book for Dexters and I don't mean temporary. Like BCMS but with bells and whistles. I suggested this to two long-standing members which I fully expected to say "Oh no, please not two herd books". That is what they said, but they then added that they would probably go for it because it's better than what we have.

Post by **Mark Bowles** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:57 pm

Hi Clive, as you know i am currently on council, and i have been involved with the rest of council over the subsciptions and fees. I don't want to get into a slanging match over the issue as it would do both parties no good.
Ref your comment:-
"With the overage fee, the words are "because we can and some people will pay it.", that was the only explanation given to me. You probably won't find those quotes in any minutes".
9 words to describe many hours of debate with first the Steering Committee and then the current council does not do the subject justice

Pennielea · Post by **Pennielea** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:58 pm

You are quite right Clive, I have been perusing the minutes of the last 5 Council meetings, now published on the DCS website, and there is no mention of the discussion you refer to.

As regards a new Herd book the EU has rules. Only a recognised organisation can publish a Herd Book and where there is already a recognised organisation in the country a new one will not be recognised.

I will send you the links when I find them.

Ian

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:15 am

From what I recall from Steering Committee meetings the subject of fees was discussed at length but it was decided that we did not have the mandate from the membership to take such decisions and would leave that to a properly elected Council (which we did).
My conclusions from the discussions that we held was that there was (and still is) two distinct trains of thought. The first being that allowing low fees would encourage poor quality and the second that high fees would result in the loss of bloodlines.
To resolve this maybe overage fees should be reduced and have inspections of all bulls registered.

Peter thornton · Post by **Peter thornton** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:20 am

Then how about some commonsense commercial sense? I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and again and again!!)
Running any society is a matter of applying some simple principles:

1. You encourage people to join
2. You serve the members

It doesn't matter whether it's a book club or a cattle society the principles and the techniques are the same.

Let's just look at one example: Transfer fees.
It absolutely shouts at me that the top, prime, golden, wonderful, etc etc opportunity to get someone into membership is the point that they buy a Dexter for the 1st time.
What do we do? We hit them with lots of fees.

What could we do?

1. Free transfer of cattle to non members.
2. 6 months free membership to non members who purchase cattle from members.

Why would anyone not join?

We need a generally better attitude towards our members. Our bulletin always seems to be full of paragraphs telling us off for registering late etc etc. Lots' of sections with thick black lies round YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED etc.
Yes, we need to do things in the right way but there is a hectoring tone which is not always helpful.

Or am I too sensitive?

And, by the way, the actual people in the office are always very helpful, I'm not talking about them.

But of all the important subjects, the Bull Registration issue is THE one that's going to really affect the society the most in the short term. PLEASE let's have some common sense on this.

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:24 pm

Please bear with me as I digress.

Many years ago when my children were small they went to the lovely, friendly local playschool - so I thought. I was befriended by another Mum who was on the committee. “We need you on the Committee,” she said. So I went on the committee and what a shock I got. I had assumed that it was all lovely and friendly and that people were on the committee for the good of the playschool and all the children. Of course not – most committee members were there to get what they wanted for their own child and really didn’t care about anyone else’s child. One Mum with a child that was born in September and had just missed school wanted them to start reading and doing more school like work, a Mum who had a youngest child of 18 months and all her others at playschool or school wanted the starting age brought down from 2 and a half to18 months and so on. The committee meetings were a shambles of arguments and bitterness, nothing useful got done, I removed myself quickly. Some of the younger mothers had even gone to the playschool themselves, it had been going for a good 20 years but the infighting eventually killed it and it closed.

I have no idea what the committee meetings are like at the DCS and am not pretending I do but it strikes me from reading this site that too many members are behaving like the ladies did at playschool and just want what suits them for their herd and pots to the rest of us!!!

Dexter isn't an elitists showing only breed, or big herd only, small herd only, cottager only, or anything else only. Long established owners are no more a valid owner of a Dexter Herd than someone who has just returned from the market!!! It is meant to be anyone’s breed, now for goodness sake let’s please try to be as inclusive and friendly as possible and try to make it easy, inexpensive and enjoyable to be a member of the DCS!

Stephanie

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:16 pm

I quite agree that the current bull registration procedure is counter productive as it is both Byzantine and expensive. Having managed to get one young bull through the process, with the aim of serving a couple of heifers and then going for beef, he is now on track to become a long-term sire as I really can't face going through the whole process again. I'll be happy therefore to contribute to any document that suggests a change to bull registration.
I, too, noted the reduction in registrations for Gloucester cattle in the Ark, and thought what a splendid precedent for DCS.
I quite agree that we need DCS to be attractive and inclusive. More and more people who hire my bulls have no intention of birth notifying calves and no interest in DCS.

67-1231182203 · Post by **67-1231182203** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:43 pm

Hi Mark, Who did you have those extensive discussions about bull fees with? The decision to raise bull fees was made at the very first meeting of the current council, when I objected (to both fee rises) I was told that some people could make a correct decision on whether a bull calf would make a suitable breeding animal when it was "one month old". This completely floored me I confess, but when the opportunity came to decide on subjects for the agenda, I tried to start a debate on the the whole subject of bulls, by e-mail, apart from being told I had some interesting ideas, I was told it was a closed subject not to be reopened until the next round of fee rises.

I was on council until just before Christmas and it was mainly complete frustration at the lack of debate by the majority of the council and at being side-lined and ignored that drove me to resign.

I thought this was a discussion board, surely this is the perfect place for just such a discussion, there are a number of people off council who would like to see things changed by those on council especially as current council policy does not seem to be helping to promote and improve the breed. I never did get clarity on what the council's policy was when I was on council, perhaps someone would enlighten me.

I totally agree with Peter Thornton's assessment of the DCS, he is spot on. Saffy, the council isn't quite the same as your school committee, however, unfriendly and dismissive are two words that spring to mind. I did spend a lot of time arguing for lowering bull fees and overage fees, precisely because I feel that the current rates do nothing for the breed or the average dexter breeder. Whatever way you look at it, the b and o fees are too expensive, compare with other societies, look at the value of our animals, look at the smaller breeder who has only half a dozen cows. They only benefit certain breeders who have larger herds and are in the business of selling pedigree dexters for higher prices, forcing others to think about going ex-pedigree!

Ken Hobbs · Post by **Ken Hobbs** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:08 pm

Here we go again, a completly new Council have just taken post and in less than four months individuals are having a go because they are not doing what they want. If you think there is a problem area, submit a proper paper to the Council detailing what you think would improve your concerns, and also a way in which it could be over come, and if it is a finacial burden to the Society, how to recoupe any losses of income that will be incurred to the Society. Give this Council a chance, comments like: "wake up and smell the coffee" would not endear me to read or listen to that individual. Those who have resigned have lost their chance to have any input in to decisions, we cannot have it our own way even if we are on Council, Democracy, Be fair, do it properly and stop slating the Council and give them a chance.

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:19 pm

Ken - I realise that the way I worded my post it sounded as if I meant that council members in particular wanted to have the DCS run to suit the needs of their herds but by members I actually meant all members tend to want what suits them and we all need to realise that we must have what suits everyone and in particular the breed.

I tried several times to change my posting but it won't let me.

Stephanie

Ken Hobbs · Post by **Ken Hobbs** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:25 pm

Saffy,
I was not having a go at you, I did understand what you were saying and agree with you, We are a large diverse Society and we have to respect all members. I am saying give this Council a chance or we will end up down the same old road and trying to drive them out.